Diemschutz arrival

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick. Perhaps more people aren't aligned with you on this because some time back I demonstrated that the young couple were actually gone from the street a long time prior to Schwartz and Brown coming along.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom.
I do vaguely recall you having a go at it, as you have with many things, but I don't recall anything convincing coming out of it.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Well, I can certainly live with that too. What about the other couple supposedly out and about?

The couple had long since parted by the time Stride was killed. This is one of those numerous Stride myths that I'm always referring to which muddy the waters of understanding this particular murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

It appears I am the only one who is not convinced Brown saw Stride, in my opinion Brown saw the other young couple that walked down & up Berner St. at that hour.

Hi Wick. Perhaps more people aren't aligned with you on this because some time back I demonstrated that the young couple were actually gone from the street a long time prior to Schwartz and Brown coming along.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

There seems to be some assumptives being discussed as if they were empiricals,....namely, there is a story by someone who gave the name Israel Schwartz, there is no BSM/Liz assault in front of the gates without him. No other witness testified to an altercation, and no other witness heard or saw one. He is not recorded as being part of any Inquiry or Identification process.

There was a young couple in the area at the time, and Brown did not see any color on either of the people he saw. However, Liz must already have been wearing her maidenfern at that hour, and Brown passes by the end of Berner Street at around 12:45 and mentions nothing about anything happening in front of the club gates, or some man running by with a "Pipeman" chasing him.

Its odd to me that a source people would use to ascertain what was the status of the street in front of the gate at around 12:45 is Israel Schwarts, when in fact we have no reason to assume he was there at all other than his word. Since we have sources for 12:40 by the gates, 2 of them, and since we have Fanny Mortimer off and on at her door from 12:30 until 1am, the last 10 minutes fairly steadily, and since we have 2 people seeing the young couple and neither mentioning any color on either of them, 1 witness seeing Goldstein, and since we have a grand total of zero witnesses seeing or hearing Israel Schwartz, Broadshouldered Man, and Pipeman, we can surmise with witness support that at 12:40 there was no-one in front of the gates in the street,..... the young couple is probably whom Brown saw, and the only thing that happened with a reliable witness after 12:35 was Goldsteins pass by the gates.

At a time I might add when Liz Stride is certainly at her murder location already, and is likely lying on the ground bleeding to death.

When only the Immigrant Jews at the club offer stories without corroboration that place the victim and murderer off-premises just before her cut, one has to wonder, considering that all Immigrant Jews on that premises that night would have been initially, primary suspects. Based on the senior officials view at that time, that an immigrant Jew was The Whitechapel Murderer.

Best regards

[lynn cates]

I got, got, got no time.

Hello (again) Jon. Are we to imagine that Stride's assailant had no time to mutilate but DID find time to place cachous in her hand? And for what earthly reason?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

easy to live with

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Ah! That's what I referred to in my post to Tom. And I can live with that too.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Polly and Annie

Hello Garza.

"if Liz had a few cuts on her abdomen, would be having this discussion?"

Actually, I'd be discussing Kate. Seriously, if Liz and Kate both had the double cuts and bruises about the face, like Polly and Annie, and lacerated/protruding tongues, like Polly and Annie, and dresses lifted up to mutilate, like Polly and Annie, and their own statements about soliciting, like Polly and Annie, then I'd be delighted to exit stage left.

They didn't.

Cheers.
LC

[Lechmere]

Tom

You must understand that when Monty makes disparaging remarks about people seeking to bolster a theory, he is having a specific dig at the (pet) Charles Lechmere theory – as is his want.
When that is understood then it is clear who he aimed his barb at!

Incidentally you may have noticed that some of the ‘Stride non-Ripperists’ have a new favoured suspect for her murderer... Kosminsky! In that he just committed that crime and from that was incorrectly blamed for the rest by the police.

Wickerman

Why are you asking whether I was serious in asking Monty my unanswered question as to whether he thought Stride’s had been incapacitated before her throat was cut?
In retrospect perhaps it wasn’t clear that I was asking Monty.

I think she was incapacitated my some means, which meant they was less blood than might be expected and she seemingly did not struggle before having her throat cut, seemingly on the ground.

That is a common MO with the other Ripper victims of course.
I wondered what Monty made of it.

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello Tom. Thanks.

"I wouldn't be surprised if BOTH men were off on their timing . . ."

I can live with that.

". . . but that of course does not mean that both weren't otherwise accurate in their evidence."

Agreed again. But it does mean that an adjustment is needed--they cannot be accepted as is.

"I personally think the Brown incident occurred just before the Schwartz incident. As little as one or two minutes may have separated the events, if we suppose for a moment that Brown's man was Pipeman."

Well, I can certainly live with that too. What about the other couple supposedly out and about?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

under pressure

Hello Garza. If you include any pressure to the throat, then we are together here.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Regarding the cachous, it can only be logically concluded she was strangled or the killer placed them there puroposefully after the murder.

Thats the one option I have always resisted mentioning, too contrived but still, not impossible.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon G. Thanks.

"I am aware of plenty of Schwartz theorising but I can`t recall any reason to discount his witness statement, sorry."

Well, just for a start, if true, it negates Brown's story--and conversely. Moreover, it was not corroborated.

Hi Lynn.

It appears I am the only one who is not convinced Brown saw Stride, in my opinion Brown saw the other young couple that walked down & up Berner St. at that hour.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Garza, you're absolutely correct, particularly in regard to the rarity of a successful one-slice throat cutting. The same researchers who try to argue against Stride as a Ripper victim have posted ad infinitum reports of women who got their throat cut in the LVP. MOST of these women survived the cut, and the overwhelming majority were domestic cases. When you boil them down to women killed in 1888, in London, in this manner, you're pretty much left with Stride and the other alleged Ripper victims. But people will want to believe the things they want to believe, and for their own reasons, so arguing is futile. Unfortunately, the fact remains that most posters who suggest Stride wasn't a Ripper victim are laboring under this thinking based on a complete misunderstanding of the evidence. Just recently, on this thread, someone said they read that Stride was killed with her own knife, which of course is supported by zero evidence, but is one of the many myths put forth over the years by those wanting to count her out.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Garza]

I believe that the people who say that Stride is not a Ripper victim ignore the massive similarities and focus on a few differences (probably only one difference).

If Liz Stride had a few gashes on her abdomen, the majority would blink an eye in calling her a Ripper victim.

The fact is that knife crime against women in Victorian England was quite rare, even in Whitechapel, take away the stabbings and you get a less number, take away non-prostitute knife crimes and you get an even lesser number, take away throat cuts not down in a street - a lesser number, then take away again women who get their throat cut while standing up - a lesser number still.

Then calculate the odds of a rare crime being commited on two women, less than a mile apart, less than an hour apart, whom appear to be soliciting, who are killed on the street, with their throats cut while on the ground ( I cannot stress the last part enough - throats cuts on the street are not usually done while the victim is lying on the ground yet these were, as was Eddowes, Chapman and Nichols).

Think about it, if Liz had a few cuts on her abdomen, would be having this discussion?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom. If Schwartz is correct, where's Brown? If Brown is correct, where's Schwartz? Seems rather like Long and Cadosch--at least one has the wrong time.

I wouldn't be surprised if BOTH men were off on their timing, but that of course does not mean that both weren't otherwise accurate in their evidence. I personally think the Brown incident occurred just before the Schwartz incident. As little as one or two minutes may have separated the events, if we suppose for a moment that Brown's man was Pipeman.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott