Diemschutz arrival

[lynn cates]

timed results

Hello (yet again) Jon. Thanks.

"If he said he arrived back at the club at exactly one o`clock, and we know he passed a clock at the top of the street, then I suppose the answer is yes."

So one is to imagine that Dimshits repeatedly timed himself from point A to point B? It is, of course, possible. (That is the sort of perverse thing that I would do and have done.)

Do you think it at least possible that, like Blackwell (in "The Times" account) and, Llewellyn, as you point out, Dimshits may NOT be accounting for the travelling discrepancy between observed clock time and arrival time?

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Jon:

"Do all the newspaper reports of the inquest have Blackwell saying this?"

1.16, wasn“t that the time? And Johnston said he clocked in three to four minutes earlier. Blackwell had a timepiece as I remember it.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

interruption etc.

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

“Brown wasn`t in Berner St. He lived in Fairclough St and walked over to the shop on the corner of Fairclough St and Berner St. The couple he saw were against the Board school in Fairclough St. This other couple would later talk to Fanny Mortimer at the gates of the club following the murder.”

Indeed. And that is precisely why I doubt Brown’s story. Nevertheless, I find it difficult to believe he would not have heard the shout of “Lipski” (of course, he could not have heard Liz’s shouts as they were not loud shouts—heh-heh). So I naturally doubt Schwartz as well.

“Well, if no-one else saw Schwartz or the BS man assault, this is what we`d expect.”

Are you seriously suggesting there were people present just before and just after the fracas, but they all vanished just long enough for ONLY Schwartz to witness the event?

“The easiest way for me to answer this is to copy and paste a definition of the word interrupt and ask you to apply it to Schwartz`s police statement:

in•ter•rupt
   [v. in-tuh-ruhpt; n. in-tuh-ruhpt] Show IPA

verb (used with object)
1.
to cause or make a break in the continuity or uniformity of (a course, process, condition, etc.).

2.
to break off or cause to cease, as in the middle of something: He interrupted his work to answer the bell.

3.
to stop (a person) in the midst of doing or saying something, especially by an interjected remark: May I interrupt you to comment on your last remark?

verb (used without object)
4.
to cause a break or discontinuance; interfere with action or speech, especially by interjecting a remark: Please don't interrupt.’"

Although you don’t indicate which sense is intended, I shall attempt a reply.

1. Which continuity/uniformity is being broken? The quiet of the night? Very well.

2. What was being broken off? What was Liz in the middle of?

3. What was Liz doing or saying?

4. Break or discontinuance of what?

You see, I am not trying to be coy—far from it. If I understand the usual theory of interruption, it means something like, “The assailant was interrupted in his sequence which began with subduing and ended with mutilation.” In that case, it was the sequence that was being broken; was in the middle of; being done; discontinued.

“How is that logical, Lynn?"

You mean my doubt? Well, how are you using “logical”? Reasonable, perhaps? My doubt stems from;

1. A fracas, including a shout, which was unheard.

2. An uncorroborated event.

3. A statement which could be interpreted as self-serving, vis-ą-vis the club.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Would he be aware of the exact time if the clock had read 12.56? To put it another way, would he be certain of a 4 minute interval between clock and yard?

If he said he arrived back at the club at exactly one o`clock, and we know he passed a clock at the top of the street, then I suppose the answer is yes.

Here may be an interesting parallel. Look at Blackwell's testimony. He gives 1.10 as BOTH summons time AND arrival time. (Evans and Skinner, p. 149)

I invite one to think of Dimshits in PRECISELY the same way.

Do all the newspaper reports of the inquest have Blackwell saying this?
The same thing occurs with Dr Llewellyn and his summons and arrival time.

[lynn cates]

Dos amigos.

Hello Miakaal. Thanks.

"Do you know who the "two men" were?"

Well, according to the AF article:

"In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman."

So 2 of those 3 seem likely.

Synchronisation of clocks? No, I don't believe so. And IF the Baker's clock was off by, say, 5 minutes, it might have been a good bit earlier.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

parallel

Hello Jon. Thanks.

""Didn`t he say that he arrived back at the club at exactly 1 am, he noticed the time at the shop at the top of the road."

Yes, he did.

"Therefore, it must have been about 12.56 on the Bakers clock, if he arrived at the club at exactly 1am."

Would he be aware of the exact time if the clock had read 12.56? To put it another way, would he be certain of a 4 minute interval between clock and yard?

Here may be an interesting parallel. Look at Blackwell's testimony. He gives 1.10 as BOTH summons time AND arrival time. (Evans and Skinner, p. 149)

I invite one to think of Dimshits in PRECISELY the same way.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Tom

Just between you and me, Schwartz and James Brown's statements do not 'negate each other', in spite of what Lynn says.

Agreed. Brown almost certainly saw the other couple, and he was on Fairclough St anyway.

As for reasons to suspect Schwartz' s statements, there are the newspaper reports that say the police made arrests upon his statements, the men were freed, and the police questions the validity of his statements and would not make further arrests until they had reason to believe Schwartz.

But, as you point out, the police reports we have give us no reason to disbelieve Schwartz.

I personally think he was associated with the Berner Street club, and this is what gave them pause in believe him.

Even though Schwartz is not mentioned at all in the Club`s very own Workers Friend article that covered the murder and the goings on that night ?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Well, just for a start, if true, it negates Brown's story--and conversely.

Brown wasn`t in Berner St. He lived in Fairclough St and walked over to the shop on the corner of Fairclough St and Berner St. The couple he saw were against the Board school in Fairclough St. This other couple would later talk to Fanny Mortimer at the gates of the club following the murder.

Moreover, it was not corroborated.

Well, if no-one else saw Schwartz or the BS man assault, this is what we`d expect.

But then how an interruption?

The easiest way for me to answer this is to copy and paste a definition of the word interrupt and ask you to apply it to Schwartz`s police statement:

in·ter·rupt
   [v. in-tuh-ruhpt; n. in-tuh-ruhpt] Show IPA

verb (used with object)
1.
to cause or make a break in the continuity or uniformity of (a course, process, condition, etc.).

2.
to break off or cause to cease, as in the middle of something: He interrupted his work to answer the bell.

3.
to stop (a person) in the midst of doing or saying something, especially by an interjected remark: May I interrupt you to comment on your last remark?

verb (used without object)
4.
to cause a break or discontinuance; interfere with action or speech, especially by interjecting a remark: Please don't interrupt.

Well, the logician's reply is, "Dubito"--I doubt [it]. I have no reason to believe Israel's story.

How is that logical, Lynn?

[miakaal4]

Hi Lynn,
Do you know who the "two men" were? The other thing is how do we know that all the local church clocks, bells and watches were showing the same time? Even today a synchronisation between four people with watches would almost certainly show four different times. How did they know what the time was to set the clocks watches in the first place?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Dimshits entered the yard AFTER seeing a clock read 1.00.

Didn`t he say that he arrived back at the club at exactly 1 am, he noticed the time at the shop at the top of the road.

Therefore, it must have been about 12.56 on the Bakers clock, if he arrived at the club at exactly 1am.

[lynn cates]

Behold, the Lamb.

Hello Harry. Having Dimshits enter the yard at 1.00 and then discovering the body does not sit well with this snippet from "The Daily Telegraph."

"Constable Henry Lamb, 252 H division, examined by the coroner, said: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder"."

Please to recall that, by his own testimony, Dimshits entered the yard AFTER seeing a clock read 1.00. Then the pony shied, then he probed with his whip handle, then he struck a match, then he went inside the club, then he announced his find, then the lads were sent for the police, then they accosted Lamb.

So his watch should have read about 1.10.

CAVEAT: if someone is contemplating the usual lecture about LVP time pieces, please refrain--claiming that his watch might have been 5-10 minutes slow is no more convincing than 5-10 minutes fast.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

B S again

Hello Damaso. Thanks for that.

I entirely agree that a Stride-out-of-the-canon person would naturally align more with the Schwartz-was-for-real camp. (Am I actually using paralogisms so freely?)

Nevertheless, I have reason to doubt his story and shall continue to hold it in suspense until convinced otherwise.

Should it prove true, we may rest assured that BS did for Liz. We may also lay to rest Dr. Phillip's concern about the peri-mortem bruising of the shoulders--BS did it.

Cheers.
LC

[sleekviper]

Stride was probably scared to death. "But stress and trauma don't just take out the heart. These catecholamines go tearing through all the muscles of the body. They cause muscles to burn so hard that they break down, especially skeletal muscles" http://io9.com/5919137/the-science-o...cared-to-death
Skeletal muscles being the ones that control the skeletal system. So muscles would have contracted in the heart, and especially in a voluntary skeletal muscle such as those controlling her hand.
"If it's a massive overwhelming storm of adrenaline, calcium keeps pouring into the cells and the muscle just can't relax."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=scared-to-death-heart-attack

Stride may have died from fear.
"I know this because I have cases of children with absolutely no heart disease who died on amusement-park rides," Samuels said.
"My own view is that any human is potentially at risk. We all carry this little bomb inside us," Samuels said. "We're all at risk. If the situation is just right, if the stress is bad enough, if it's acute enough, if there's no way out, any of us can die."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=2614635&page=1#.UHvUMm8xrSk

[Monty]

Hi Lech. You're probably right, but Monty and his set seem to have a sore spot reserved for anyone who researches and writes about suspects, with a few exceptions. I've been at the receiving end of those barbs a time or two myself, and have certainly been accused of skewing my own views just to support a suspect theory, which is blatantly untrue. Remarkably, researchers will actually accept my findings and conclusions, yet still accuse me of manipulating the facts to 'bolster my theory'. It was probably for this reason that I jumped at Monty's post like I did.


Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Heh, loving the victim approach of yours here Tom. You aren't as innocent as you make out and we both know it. And others who have fallen foul of you will support that.

Another example of manipulating the facts.

Monty

[Monty]

Tom

You must understand that when Monty makes disparaging remarks about people seeking to bolster a theory, he is having a specific dig at the (pet) Charles Lechmere theory – as is his want.
When that is understood then it is clear who he aimed his barb at!

Incidentally you may have noticed that some of the ‘Stride non-Ripperists’ have a new favoured suspect for her murderer... Kosminsky! In that he just committed that crime and from that was incorrectly blamed for the rest by the police.

Wickerman

Why are you asking whether I was serious in asking Monty my unanswered question as to whether he thought Stride’s had been incapacitated before her throat was cut?
In retrospect perhaps it wasn’t clear that I was asking Monty.

I think she was incapacitated my some means, which meant they was less blood than might be expected and she seemingly did not struggle before having her throat cut, seemingly on the ground.

That is a common MO with the other Ripper victims of course.
I wondered what Monty made of it.

Wow, you know me so well Ed. Its like you are Derren Brown or something.

Unfortunately for your ego, there was life before you and your Cross theory, which isn't really yours but anyhoos, my comment was not directed at it....or Toms theories but suspect theories which require Stride to support them.

It humours me that the only two Guys to pick up on those words of mine are the ones with pet theories...that requires Stride to support them. Paranoia supreme.

Partial asphyxiation, to provide the answer to your demanded questioning.

Monty