Diemschutz arrival

[lynn cates]

arrival

Hello Christer. Thanks. So "The Times" entry for arrival must be the wrong one.

Cheers.
LC

[sleekviper]

Hello Jon,
Thanks, but I mean how far is the actual distance? From doorstep to body, are the addresses really close?

[Michael W Richards]

Fanny Mortimer is probably the most under-rated witness in Ripperology, the only witness officially corroborated by someone else (Goldstein). She seemed to be a nosy busybody that even paid attention to footsteps outside her door. She is one of the reasons that I cannot believe Schwartz's story, she bolted out to Dutfields Yard as soon as she heard the commotion of the body being found, yet she didn't hear a man yell Lipski, or hear a woman scream twice, even if it was softly.... right outside her door?

Out of all the witnesses in the Ripper case, she is gold.

Im pleased to finally see some common sense being applied. She did however hear a cart, (approaching or leaving?), and she heard bootsteps on the cobblestones, (whose?). What Fanny did see, (Goldstein), sparked the fantasy of the black bag carrying Ripper, however, not her fault of course.

The Inquest line-up perhaps suggests something of a minor conclusion on the part of the Inquisitors, as it were,...Wess, who passed through the front door without seeing anything or anyone at around 12:15, Eagle, who passed by the spot the victim is found at at around 12:40, seeing no-one, then Diemshitz, who no-one sees or hears arrive, by his time, at 1:00am. He sees no-one as he made his way down Berner Street to the club.

That seems to me to paint a picture of a quiet street, before and leading up to the murder. The only break in that monotony is the sighting by PC Smith at around 12:35, the ONLY Inquest account which places Stride still alive at that location. Does she vanish when Morris re-appears? Or when Lave looks out into the street?

Interesting to me is that both Wess and Eagle hedged their statements as to whether a body was at the murder location when they looked in that direction. Wess said during his cross examination;

"[Coroner] Did you look towards the yard gates?
Wess - Not so much to the gates as to the ground, but nothing unusual attracted my attention.
[Coroner] Can you say that there was no object on the ground?
Wess - I could not say that.
[Coroner] Do you think it possible that anything can have been there without your observing it?
Wess -It was dark, and I am a little shortsighted, so that it is possible. The distance from the gates to the kitchen door is 18 ft. "

And Eagle says:

"[Coroner] Did you notice anything lying on the ground near the gates?
Eagle - I did not.
[Coroner] Did you pass in the middle of the gateway?
Eagle - I think so. The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide. I naturally walked on the right side, that being the side on which the club door was.
[Coroner] Do you think you are able to say that the deceased was not lying there then?
Eagle - I do not know, I am sure, because it was rather dark. There was a light from the upper part of the club, but that would not throw any illumination upon the ground. It was dark near the gates.
[Coroner] You have formed no opinion, I take it, then, as to whether there was anything there?
Eagle - No.

Why wouldnt Eagle be able to form an opinion as to whether he had to step over a body when he enters the passageway? Which he would have, since he "naturally walked on the right side" where the club door was.

Cheers

[Jon Guy]

What is the distance that Blackwell has to travel to reach Stride?

He had to come from 100 Commercial Rd, which was on Commercial Rd at the top of the next street along, Batty St.

[sleekviper]

What is the distance that Blackwell has to travel to reach Stride?

[Garza]

Thats the one option I have always resisted mentioning, too contrived but still, not impossible.

Regards, Jon S.

Yes, the killer placing the cachous in the hand of Stride is not impossible, would not think it the most likely answer however.

Hello Garza.

Actually, I'd be discussing Kate. Seriously, if Liz and Kate both had the double cuts and bruises about the face, like Polly and Annie, and lacerated/protruding tongues, like Polly and Annie, and dresses lifted up to mutilate, like Polly and Annie, and their own statements about soliciting, like Polly and Annie, then I'd be delighted to exit stage left.

They didn't.

Cheers.
LC

Oh I knew you would be discussing it Lynn, you're never afraid to go outside the box.

However it is not common for two muders to be exactly alike, even by the same murderer. The canonical five have a lot of similarities, none of them alike to each other. Nichols did not have organs removed, yet Chapman did for example. Organised killers evolve, they experiment, they try and find out what it the most efficient.

[Garza]

Following this, Fanny Mortimer stands in her doorway from approx.. 12:46 to 12:56 and sees absolutely no one until Leon Goldstein passed along the street at approx. 12:56. If anything, she corroborates the one suspicious element of Schwartz’s story…that being how quiet and desolate the street was at the time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Fanny Mortimer is probably the most under-rated witness in Ripperology, the only witness officially corroborated by someone else (Goldstein). She seemed to be a nosy busybody that even paid attention to footsteps outside her door. She is one of the reasons that I cannot believe Schwartz's story, she bolted out to Dutfields Yard as soon as she heard the commotion of the body being found, yet she didn't hear a man yell Lipski, or hear a woman scream twice, even if it was softly.... right outside her door?

Out of all the witnesses in the Ripper case, she is gold.

[Michael W Richards]

What people? James Brown witnessed Stride and a man at the corner of Fairclough Street. Shortly after, Schwartz sees her alone in the gates of Dutfield’s Yard when she stops BS Man. Following this, Fanny Mortimer stands in her doorway from approx.. 12:46 to 12:56 and sees absolutely no one until Leon Goldstein passed along the street at approx. 12:56. If anything, she corroborates the one suspicious element of Schwartz’s story…that being how quiet and desolate the street was at the time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

First off what Brown saw was a woman and man at the corner, he thought that the woman was the same he saw in the mortuary. But as has been said, he saw nothing of color on either person, Liz quite clearly had both white and red on her breast. We know that a young couple were in the immediate area. He also says he saw that at 12:45, Israel says he saw Liz and BSM in front of the gates at 12:45, so no, both times and sightings cannot be correct. BSM grabs her, she doesnt stop him, and Fanny not only sees none of what Israel said happened but she heard none of it as well. Though she could hear simple bootsteps when not at her door.

Fannys statements, substantiated by the fact she mentions Goldstein days before he even acknowledges that he passed by at that time, and the young couple, likely also seen by Brown, add up to a quiet time in front of the gates and on the street from after the time the PC left, she never saw anyone or heard anyone in front of the gates, she saw someone pass them.

Im beginning to understand why this seems so hard to grasp for some people when the "facts" are continually misrepresented.

Regards

[Tom_Wescott]

Even though Schwartz is not mentioned at all in the Club`s very own Workers Friend article that covered the murder and the goings on that night ?

Absolutely. They would have been forbidden to do so. Yet, remarkably, club secretary, William Wess, DID speak to a pressman, but when asked for the witness’ name, Wess said ‘Oh, I forgot his name. But he’s not a member of the club.’ Most attendees were not due-paying members, so he was probably not telling a lie here. But he forgot his name? Possible, but does the Arbeter Fraint discuss club member Leon Goldstein, who Wess personally escorted both to the police and press? And the Star article on Schwartz states that he had been moving from Berner Street JUST THAT DAY and was on his way back to his former lodgings when the event happened. It’s interesting that – while walking to his former lodgings – he was on the same side of the street as the club and didn’t cross the street until he’d reached the gateway and was blocked. Upon crossing to the other side, he then stops and turns around. If from this we can infer that his former lodging was on the same side of the street as the club, what other building is there on that side of Berner Street known for giving free/cheap temporary lodgings to immigrant Jews?

Here may be an interesting parallel. Look at Blackwell's testimony. He gives 1.10 as BOTH summons time AND arrival time.

No, he gave 1:16am as his arrival time. The Times got it wrong. Every other source says 1:16am.

Are you seriously suggesting there were people present just before and just after the fracas, but they all vanished just long enough for ONLY Schwartz to witness the event?

What people? James Brown witnessed Stride and a man at the corner of Fairclough Street. Shortly after, Schwartz sees her alone in the gates of Dutfield’s Yard when she stops BS Man. Following this, Fanny Mortimer stands in her doorway from approx.. 12:46 to 12:56 and sees absolutely no one until Leon Goldstein passed along the street at approx. 12:56. If anything, she corroborates the one suspicious element of Schwartz’s story…that being how quiet and desolate the street was at the time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

None of the bickering about which account to follow resolves the issue of when exactly Diemshitz arrived, but Isaac Kozebrodski stated when first interviewed within an hour of the events that he was summoned to the passageway about 10 minutes after he arrived back at the club, which he said was at "half past 12". He then stated that he was sent ALONE to get help, and later when he returned he saw Eagle and the policeman entering the yard. Remember that quote when you imagine Louis and Isaac went for help together, clearly, Kozebrodski wouldnt mis-remeber the event within 60 minutes. Either Louis meant a member named "Isaacs", or he lied.

Without knowing specifically where Isaac went, and how long it took him to make his search for police, its quite possible that Eagle and cop arrived at the scene around 1:10am. Which would make Isaac plausible in his recollections of the time....not that amazing since he was recollecting events within an hour of their occurrence.

Heschberg also stated he was alerted to the body at approx 12:40. So did Spooners story.

Yet many people prefer the story of Diemshitz and Schwartz. Neither of which has any corroboration.

Funny thing is that if the cut was nearer to 12:46 than 12:56 an interruption by Louis is possible, because to my eye the existing facts suggest that kind of timing.

Cheers

[Fisherman]

Lynn:

"Does the other source have summons time?"

It does:

"I reside at No. 100, Commercial-road, and am a physician and surgeon. On Sunday morning last, at ten minutes past one o'clock, I was called to Berner-street by a policeman."

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Hi Michael

There seems to be some assumptives being discussed as if they were empiricals,....namely, there is a story by someone who gave the name Israel Schwartz, there is no BSM/Liz assault in front of the gates without him.

Yes, the story appears in the form of a police witness statement.

No other witness testified to an altercation, and no other witness heard or saw one..

That`s correct. Which other witnesses were about ? Mortimer was not on her doorstep yet, Brown was on another street.

He is not recorded as being part of any Inquiry or Identification process.

His witness statement is in the Whitechapel murders file. Isn`t that an inquiry?

Brown passes by the end of Berner Street at around 12:45 and mentions nothing about anything happening in front of the club gates, or some man running by with a "Pipeman" chasing him.

I believe Brown lived at 35 Fairclough St, have you seen where that house is on Fairclough St in relation to the shop? Did he say that he looked up Berner St and saw nothing?

Its odd to me that a source people would use to ascertain what was the status of the street in front of the gate at around 12:45 is Israel Schwarts, when in fact we have no reason to assume he was there at all other than his word. Since we have sources for 12:40 by the gates,

I thought it all happened shortly after 12.45 not 12.40?

and since we have Fanny Mortimer off and on at her door from 12:30 until 1am, the last 10 minutes fairly steadily,

"On and off" at her door!!

10 mins off 1am is 12.50am. It was all over by then?

and since we have 2 people seeing the young couple and neither mentioning any color on either of them, 1 witness seeing Goldstein, and since we have a grand total of zero witnesses seeing or hearing Israel Schwartz,

That`ll be correct. It fits in with all the other witness statements.

we can surmise with witness support that at 12:40 there was no-one in front of the gates in the street,.....

Agreed. As does Schwartz`s statement.

When only the Immigrant Jews at the club offer stories without corroboration that place the victim and murderer off-premises just before her cut,

Which Immigrant Jew club member placed Stride and her murderer off-premises just before her cut?

[lynn cates]

high time

Hello Christer. Thanks.

"So, he dressed and went to Berner Street - and the time stood still meanwhile!"

But that was my point. If "The Times" wrote accurately, and Blackwell said that, then he obviously conflated summons time with arrival time.

On the other hand, "The Times" correspondent may have misheard, and he listed both times as 1.10. Does the other source have summons time?

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Daily Telegraph, from the inquest:

" I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was 1.16 a.m."

Pretty conclusive, I´d say.

The Times, however, has Blackwell performing miraculous things:

"At 10 minutes past 1 on Sunday morning I was called to 40, Berner-street. I was called by a policeman, and my assistant, Mr. Johnson, went back with him. I followed immediately I had dressed. I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was just 1:10."

So, he dressed and went to Berner Street - and the time stood still meanwhile!

I´d buy the Daily Telegraph on this any day in the week, Lynn. Especially since Johnston confirms Blackwell on the point.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

The Times times

Hello Christer. "The Times" gives 1.10 as Blackwell's stated times.

Cheers.
LC