The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[GBinOz]

Sorry George but no I can’t refrain from that. We can’t keep dismissing someone that specifically saw a clock and wasn’t simply estimating like everyone else except Blackwell. Diemschutz and Blackwell’s times should carry more weight than the estimators. The starting point should be Diemschutz arriving and finding the body at 1.00. He was absolutely certain that he’d passed the clock at 1.00. So he arrived at 1.00 give or take a minute or 2. He wasn’t estimating and he had no reason to lie.

Lamb, who was estimating, was obviously out in his time estimate. It was shortly after 1.00 when Eagle found him (Eagle himself said that he first saw the body at 1.00)

So……Diemschutz at 1.00……Eagle just after…..Lamb after that at around 1.05 ish.

Johnson living nearby said that he saw 436H a few minutes past 1.00…..which ties up with the above.

It didn’t take Johnson 10 minutes to get to the yard because we don’t know the exact time that 436H got to his door.

Johnson said that he arrived 3 or 4 minutes before Blackwell. Blackwell got there at 1.16 so Johnston must have arrived around 1.12/1.13. So if 436H got to his door at around 1.07 this means that he got to the yard in 5 or 6 minutes. So no problem there.

The people that claimed to have been at the yard with the body before 1.00 can and should be dismissed. They were wrong.

……

Fanny Mortimer didn’t see Stride arrive at the gates because she was inside her house at the time. How could she not have seen her otherwise? She didn’t hear Diemschutz 4 minutes after going inside because Diemschutz arrived at 1.00 and she went back inside before 12.45. Mortimer is unreliable and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Errors of timing have caused far too much complication IMO. There is absolutely no mystery here. Just a few understandable human errors. Diemschutz and Koz are heard after 1.00. Spooner arrived ‘5 minutes’ before Lamb and so after 1.00. Eagle first saw the body at 1.00.

It’s very obvious that the body was discovered at 1.00 and everything follows on from that unassailable fact.

With all due respect Herlock, your numbers don't add up. In their evidence at the inquest Johnson said he was summoned by 436H at a "few minutes past one o'clock" and that he informed Blackwell, who said he was informed at 1:10. Blackwell's pocket watch was running about eight minutes slow. I own a small collection of antique pocket watches and eight minutes in error is common. Lamb was standing over the body when he dispatched 436H to get the doctor so how could Lamb be back being summoned by Eagle, as you suggest, at 1:05.

You place a great deal of faith in times quoted by Eagle and Spooner. Eagle was basing his times on his leaving to walk his girlfriend home between "half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock". He specifically stated that he did not look at the clock in the club so his time was based on a starting time with a 15 minute margin of error and an estimate of time interval of about an hour. You place more reliance on this guess than the time given by Lamb, suggesting that he was 7 minutes out in an estimate of 7 minutes? As for Spooner, his starting time was a pub closure, as though that was an exact time for all patrons, and follows on with confusing and contradictory estimates after that. It is not reasonable that estimates of long periods of time, with shaky starting points, made in hindsight by people who had no reason to know the time, can be more reliable that short estimates made by police constables.

Blackwell's pocket watch was, as testified, eight minutes slow compared to his house clock (and probably the tobacconist clock). If this correction is applied his time of death matches more closely the time of death estimate of Phillips. You are taking as gospel the word of Diemshitz at the inquest that he looked at the tobacconist clock, even though he never mentioned that in any of the newspaper interviews. You are taking Diemshitz time over that of two police constables, a doctor's assistant, Detective Inspector Reid, Dr Phillips, Fanny Mortimer and four other witnesses.

I would suggest that the understandable human errors are those made by Eagle and Spooner, and Diemshitz time was a matter of "the truth can be adjusted". You are using as a starting point a locked in time of Diemshitz clock time of 1AM. I am using as a starting point the evidence of the police, Johnson and Dr Phillips. I note that you did not challenge my time calculations. I would like to keep our discussion on an amicable basis and would just ask you to put aside for a moment the Diemshitz times and look critically at the times that I have proposed.

Cheers, George

P.S. Just a comment on your question in your last post to Michael:If Eagle had found Lamb before 1.00 how do we explain the length of time that would have been taken by 436H to get to Johnson unless he’d taken a ridiculously circuitous route?

Eagle finds Lamb between Batty and Cristian Streets at two mintes to one. Lamb proceeds to the yard, assesses that there is a murder and sends 436H back to 100 Commercial Road to arrive there at 1:02. How is 4 minutes a long time for this process?

[Joshua Rogan]

With all due respect Herlock, your numbers don't add up. In their evidence at the inquest Johnson said he was summoned by 436H at a "few minutes past one o'clock" and that he informed Blackwell, who said he was informed at 1:10. Blackwell's pocket watch was running about eight minutes slow. I own a small collection of antique pocket watches and eight minutes in error is common. Lamb was standing over the body when he dispatched 436H to get the doctor so how could Lamb be back being summoned by Eagle, as you suggest, at 1:05.

You place a great deal of faith in times quoted by Eagle and Spooner. Eagle was basing his times on his leaving to walk his girlfriend home between "half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock". He specifically stated that he did not look at the clock in the club so his time was based on a starting time with a 15 minute margin of error and an estimate of time interval of about an hour. You place more reliance on this guess than the time given by Lamb, suggesting that he was 7 minutes out in an estimate of 7 minutes? As for Spooner, his starting time was a pub closure, as though that was an exact time for all patrons, and follows on with confusing and contradictory estimates after that. It is not reasonable that estimates of long periods of time, with shaky starting points, made in hindsight by people who had no reason to know the time, can be more reliable that short estimates made by police constables.

Blackwell's pocket watch was, as testified, eight minutes slow compared to his house clock (and probably the tobacconist clock). If this correction is applied his time of death matches more closely the time of death estimate of Phillips. You are taking as gospel the word of Diemshitz at the inquest that he looked at the tobacconist clock, even though he never mentioned that in any of the newspaper interviews. You are taking Diemshitz time over that of two police constables, a doctor's assistant, Detective Inspector Reid, Dr Phillips, Fanny Mortimer and four other witnesses.

I would suggest that the understandable human errors are those made by Eagle and Spooner, and Diemshitz time was a matter of "the truth can be adjusted". You are using as a starting point a locked in time of Diemshitz clock time of 1AM. I am using as a starting point the evidence of the police, Johnson and Dr Phillips. I note that you did not challenge my time calculations. I would like to keep our discussion on an amicable basis and would just ask you to put aside for a moment the Diemshitz times and look critically at the times that I have proposed.

Cheers, George

P.S. Just a comment on your question in your last post to Michael:If Eagle had found Lamb before 1.00 how do we explain the length of time that would have been taken by 436H to get to Johnson unless he’d taken a ridiculously circuitous route?

Eagle finds Lamb between Batty and Cristian Streets at two mintes to one. Lamb proceeds to the yard, assesses that there is a murder and sends 436H back to 100 Commercial Road to arrive there at 1:02. How is 4 minutes a long time for this process?

I'm not sure I understand your maths, here....
If you are saying that the doctors were informed of the murder at 01:02 (and that was the "correct" time), and Blackwell's watch (which you say was 8 minutes slow) read 01:16 when he arrived, then the "correct" time of his arrival was actually 01:24, and thus it must have taken Blackwell 22 minutes to get dressed and make his way to the yard.

Is that what you're saying?

[GBinOz]

I'm not sure I understand your maths, here....
If you are saying that the doctors were informed of the murder at 01:02 (and that was the "correct" time), and Blackwell's watch (which you say was 8 minutes slow) read 01:16 when he arrived, then the "correct" time of his arrival was actually 01:24, and thus it must have taken Blackwell 22 minutes to get dressed and make his way to the yard.

Is that what you're saying?

Hi Joshua,

Thank you for pointing out my obvious error. In my attempt to dazzle Herlock with footwork I have come a cropper with reverse mathematics. I meant to indicate that Blackwell's pocket watch was in error but nominated the error in the opposite direction to that which I intended. I expect that Herlock will take this error in the spirit in which it was intended......and descend on me from a great height to extract some revenge..

Cheers, George

[FrankO]

With all due respect Herlock, your numbers don't add up. In their evidence at the inquest Johnson said he was summoned by 436H at a "few minutes past one o'clock" and that he informed Blackwell, who said he was informed at 1:10. Blackwell's pocket watch was running about eight minutes slow. I own a small collection of antique pocket watches and eight minutes in error is common. Lamb was standing over the body when he dispatched 436H to get the doctor so how could Lamb be back being summoned by Eagle, as you suggest, at 1:05.

You place a great deal of faith in times quoted by Eagle and Spooner. Eagle was basing his times on his leaving to walk his girlfriend home between "half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock". He specifically stated that he did not look at the clock in the club so his time was based on a starting time with a 15 minute margin of error and an estimate of time interval of about an hour. You place more reliance on this guess than the time given by Lamb, suggesting that he was 7 minutes out in an estimate of 7 minutes? As for Spooner, his starting time was a pub closure, as though that was an exact time for all patrons, and follows on with confusing and contradictory estimates after that. It is not reasonable that estimates of long periods of time, with shaky starting points, made in hindsight by people who had no reason to know the time, can be more reliable that short estimates made by police constables.

Blackwell's pocket watch was, as testified, eight minutes slow compared to his house clock (and probably the tobacconist clock). If this correction is applied his time of death matches more closely the time of death estimate of Phillips. You are taking as gospel the word of Diemshitz at the inquest that he looked at the tobacconist clock, even though he never mentioned that in any of the newspaper interviews. You are taking Diemshitz time over that of two police constables, a doctor's assistant, Detective Inspector Reid, Dr Phillips, Fanny Mortimer and four other witnesses.

I would suggest that the understandable human errors are those made by Eagle and Spooner, and Diemshitz time was a matter of "the truth can be adjusted". You are using as a starting point a locked in time of Diemshitz clock time of 1AM. I am using as a starting point the evidence of the police, Johnson and Dr Phillips. I note that you did not challenge my time calculations. I would like to keep our discussion on an amicable basis and would just ask you to put aside for a moment the Diemshitz times and look critically at the times that I have proposed.

Cheers, George

P.S. Just a comment on your question in your last post to Michael:If Eagle had found Lamb before 1.00 how do we explain the length of time that would have been taken by 436H to get to Johnson unless he’d taken a ridiculously circuitous route?

Eagle finds Lamb between Batty and Cristian Streets at two mintes to one. Lamb proceeds to the yard, assesses that there is a murder and sends 436H back to 100 Commercial Road to arrive there at 1:02. How is 4 minutes a long time for this process?

Hi George,

Allthough I agree with you that we don't know how any of the timings relate(d) to the Greenwich Mean Time, you seem not to know about the time that Eagle (was reported to have) arrived at the Leman Street police station, which was "at ten minutes past 1 o'clock" (Irish Times, Oct 1).

If we are to trust this timing, it would mean that Eagle was sent for the police station by Lamb some 4 minutes earlier and if Eagle just walked, it would have taken him about 5 minutes (it was about 500 m from Dutfield's Yard to the station via Fairclough, Backchurch and Hooper Street).

Counting back from 1:10, he would then have left Dutfield's Yard at 1:05-1:06, which would be perfectly in line with Blackwell's 1:16 in combination with Lamb's statement that he arrived at the crime scene 10 to 12 minutes before Blackwell.

Cheers,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Joshua,

Thank you for pointing out my obvious error. In my attempt to dazzle Herlock with footwork I have come a cropper with reverse mathematics. I meant to indicate that Blackwell's pocket watch was in error but nominated the error in the opposite direction to that which I intended. I expect that Herlock will take this error in the spirit in which it was intended......and descend on me from a great height to extract some revenge..

Cheers, George

George,

Ive made numerous ****-ups on here and I’m pretty sure that Joshua has pointed out some of them too.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As per The Times report of the Inquest Johnston said:

“I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell. About five or ten minutes past 1 on Sunday morning, I received a call from constable 436 H.”

And so if they arrived at the yard at around 1.06/1.07 that’s 3 or 4 minutes for 436 to dash round to Blackwell’s.

And if we take Spooner’s ‘5 minutes before Lamb’ over his 12.35 time we again see no issue here. Especially if we accept the very reasonable possibility that his ‘5 minutes’ might actually have been 3 or 4 minutes.

And as George says, of course the clock that Diemschutz saw might have been inaccurate to some extent.

Id say that this was pretty much all that we need to know…….

Smith passed between 12.30 and 12.35

Mortimer goes onto her doorstep between 12.30 and 12.35.

She goes back inside then Schwartz arrives at approx 12.45

Diemschutz returns a finds the body at approx 1.00.

He returns to the yard (after being heard by Brown) with Spooner at approx 1.02/03.

Eagle finds Lamb at approx 1.05/06.

Lamb arrives at the yard at approx 1.07.

436H gets to Johnston at approx 1.10.

After talking to Blackwell Johnston arrived at the yard approx 1.12/13.

Blackwell arrives at 1.16.

[FrankO]

And so if they arrived at the yard at around 1.06/1.07 that’s 3 or 4 minutes for 436 to dash round to Blackwell’s.

Hi Mike,

A remark of some importance. It was about 170 yards from Dutfield's Yard to the doctor's. If PC 426H actually ran, then 3 minutes are very long. Running, it would not have taken longer than a minute or so.

Cheers,
Frank

[GBinOz]

George,

Ive made numerous ****-ups on here and I’m pretty sure that Joshua has pointed out some of them too.

Thank you Herlock. A very gracious reply.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Allthough I agree with you that we don't know how any of the timings relate(d) to the Greenwich Mean Time, you seem not to know about the time that Eagle (was reported to have) arrived at the Leman Street police station, which was "at ten minutes past 1 o'clock" (Irish Times, Oct 1).

If we are to trust this timing, it would mean that Eagle was sent for the police station by Lamb some 4 minutes earlier and if Eagle just walked, it would have taken him about 5 minutes (it was about 500 m from Dutfield's Yard to the station via Fairclough, Backchurch and Hooper Street).

Counting back from 1:10, he would then have left Dutfield's Yard at 1:05-1:06, which would be perfectly in line with Blackwell's 1:16 in combination with Lamb's statement that he arrived at the crime scene 10 to 12 minutes before Blackwell.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

You're correct. I was blissfully unaware of the report in the Irish Times of Eagle arriving at Leman St PS at 1:10. I am now put in mind of the old joke " Just when I thought I had all the answers, they changed all the questions".

If Blackwell's time of arrival is accepted as correct at 1:16, then we have several conflicts. Lamb stated that Phillips arrived about 10 minutes after Blackwell (1:26), but Phillips said he was "called on Sunday morning last at twenty past one to Leman-street Police-station". Phillips was a 21 minute walk from Dutfields via Lehman St PS.Also, from the inquest, Diemshitz:[Coroner] Did you touch the body? - No, I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.
[Coroner] Had the constables arrived then? - At the very same moment Eagle and the constables arrived. [Coroner] How soon afterwards did a doctor arrive? - About twenty minutes after the constables came up.

This places Lamb, and Spooner, at the scene before 1am. Note that Lamb stated there was no one near the body when he arrived.

The Daily Telegraph report of the testimony by Johnson at the inquest had 436H summoning him at "a few minutes past one" and the Times at "about five or ten minutes past 1".

It is difficult to assess all the contradictory reports on timing. Given that Diemshitz actually contradicted his times at the inquest I am still inclined to lean towards Lamb and Smith for my times.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

As per The Times report of the Inquest Johnston said:

“I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell. About five or ten minutes past 1 on Sunday morning, I received a call from constable 436 H.”
In the Daily Telegraph report of the inquest Johnson said "a few minutes past one"

And so if they arrived at the yard at around 1.06/1.07 that’s 3 or 4 minutes for 436 to dash round to Blackwell’s.
Can't agree.

And if we take Spooner’s ‘5 minutes before Lamb’ over his 12.35 time we again see no issue here. Especially if we accept the very reasonable possibility that his ‘5 minutes’ might actually have been 3 or 4 minutes.
Diemshitz said he and Spooner arrived at the same time as Lamb.

And as George says, of course the clock that Diemschutz saw might have been inaccurate to some extent.
No, I said Diemshitz's viewing of the clock was inaccurate.

Id say that this was pretty much all that we need to know…….
I'd like to know more.

Smith passed between 12.30 and 12.35
Agreed

Mortimer goes onto her doorstep between 12.30 and 12.35.
Agreed

She goes back inside then Schwartz arrives at approx 12.45
Agreed, and Diemshitz passes 4 minutes after.

Diemschutz returns a finds the body at approx 1.00.
Disagreed

He returns to the yard (after being heard by Brown) with Spooner at approx 1.02/03.
Diemshitz stated he returned to the yard 20 minutes before the doctor arrived at 1:16. He also stated that he turned his pony into Berner St at EXACTLY one o'clock because he looked at the tobacconist clock.

Eagle finds Lamb at approx 1.05/06.
Lamb said shortly before 1 o'clock.

Lamb arrives at the yard at approx 1.07.
My opinion is at 1 o'clock.

436H gets to Johnston at approx 1.10.
One report of 1:02/03, another of 1:05/10

After talking to Blackwell Johnston arrived at the yard approx 1.12/13.
Blackwell's pocket watch time.

Blackwell arrives at 1.16.
Blackwell's pocket watch time.

There are a mass of conflicting reports and times but I remain unconvinced that Lamb could be 5 to 6 minutes in error on an estimate of 6 to 7 minutes. I am also disinclined to believe Diemshitz viewing of the tobacconist's clock of exactly 1 o'clock when he later contradicts himself by stating that he returned to the yard, after discovering the body and running to Grove St and back, 20 minutes before the arrival of Blackwell.

Cheers, George

[Joshua Rogan]

Ive made numerous ****-ups on here and I’m pretty sure that Joshua has pointed out some of them too.

Hey, nothing personal! Someone needs to fact-check you lot, and make sure those pesky human errors by witnesses aren't compounded by our own.
All part of the service.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hey, nothing personal! Someone needs to fact-check you lot, and make sure those pesky human errors by witnesses aren't compounded by our own.
All part of the service.

And I’m glad that you do Joshua

[FrankO]

I am now put in mind of the old joke " Just when I thought I had all the answers, they changed all the questions".

That's a good one, George! And so it goes sometimes. You think you have all your bases covered and then you learn about something that changes things. Still happens to me, too, sometimes.

If Blackwell's time of arrival is accepted as correct at 1:16, then we have several conflicts. Lamb stated that Phillips arrived about 10 minutes after Blackwell (1:26), but Phillips said he was "called on Sunday morning last at twenty past one to Leman-street Police-station". Phillips was a 21 minute walk from Dutfields via Lehman St PS.

Although according to the Daily Telegraph of 3 October Lamb stated that Phillips arrived about 10 minutes, there are two other versions of his statement that have Lamb state that Phillips arrived “about 20 minutes” after Blackwell. This would place the time, of course, at about 1:36.

The same thing goes for Diemshutz. According to only the version you quoted Blackwell arrived about 20 minutes after Lamb & Co., but most other versions (6) have him say “about 10 minutes after”, which would place Blackwell’s arrival close to 1:16 or Diemshutz's return to the yard, just before Lamb's arrival there, close to 1:05.

And then there are two versions of Blackwell’s inquest statement having him say that Dr. Phillips arrived from 20 minutes to half an hour after his arrival (Times & Daily Times of 3 October), which would place his arrival at the scene between 1:36 and 1:46.

Make of that what you will.

Cheers,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Mike,

A remark of some importance. It was about 170 yards from Dutfield's Yard to the doctor's. If PC 426H actually ran, then 3 minutes are very long. Running, it would not have taken longer than a minute or so.

Cheers,
Frank

Hello Frank,

Good point.

This is why I think (and I’m sure that you’d agree) that it’s pointless to try and reverse engineer events of that night without using the words ‘approximately’ or ‘around,’ or by adding the phrases ‘give or take’ or ‘plus or minus.’ Any attempts to rigidly adhere to the quoted times are certain to end in failure leaving the way clear for suggestions of wrongdoing. The above is just another example. We can’t say exactly what time 425H arrived at the yard. We can’t know what time elapsed before he left for Blackwell’s (for example, he might have checked the body with Lamb first then he might have had to have dealt with the people in the yard by keeping them away from the body and asking if anyone had seen anything or whether they knew who the deceased was?) I can’t imagine this taking any length of time of course but it could have taken up a minute or two? We can’t assume that everyone acted perfectly efficiently. Then of course we don’t know how long it took Johnston, from the time that 426H knocked his door, before he left the house. Getting to the door, listening to what 426H had to say, going upstairs to wake Blackwell and to explain the situation, getting his bag and putting his coat on and off he went. It might have taken a minute of all told of course but it might have taken 2 or 3.

You did a timeline a while ago Frank, have you had any reason to amend it? Not that it needed amending.

[FrankO]

This is why I think (and I’m sure that you’d agree) that it’s pointless to try and reverse engineer events of that night without using the words ‘approximately’ or ‘around,’ or by adding the phrases ‘give or take’ or ‘plus or minus.’ Any attempts to rigidly adhere to the quoted times are certain to end in failure leaving the way clear for suggestions of wrongdoing.

You're correct in thinking that I'd agree, Michael! That's the very reason why I started a thread about the sequence of comings & goings in and around Berner Street and not a timeline. We can, of course, try and put together a timeline, but then we have to remain flexible as to the timings, just as you say.

The above is just another example. We can’t say exactly what time 425H arrived at the yard. We can’t know what time elapsed before he left for Blackwell’s (for example, he might have checked the body with Lamb first then he might have had to have dealt with the people in the yard by keeping them away from the body and asking if anyone had seen anything or whether they knew who the deceased was?) I can’t imagine this taking any length of time of course but it could have taken up a minute or two? We can’t assume that everyone acted perfectly efficiently. Then of course we don’t know how long it took Johnston, from the time that 426H knocked his door, before he left the house. Getting to the door, listening to what 426H had to say, going upstairs to wake Blackwell and to explain the situation, getting his bag and putting his coat on and off he went. It might have taken a minute of all told of course but it might have taken 2 or 3.

Although Lamb's statement versions do suggest that he immediately sent away PC 426H and Eagle after arriving and having shone his light on Stride's body, it's possible that it took him somewhat longer or that PC 426H didn't go immediately, but first needed to attend to something else.

You did a timeline a while ago Frank, have you had any reason to amend it? Not that it needed amending.

I've only added PC 426H's and Eagle's respective arrivals at Blackwell's and the police station, so I'll post it below for who's interested.

Cheers,
Frank