The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[Michael W Richards]

Why do people make this harder than it is?


””” i was standing at my door NEARLY the whole time” ”..”. Right. She wasn’t at her door the whole time!! So she obviously wasn’t standing at her door to see stride and bs man, or anything else she missed. My god this isn’t rocket science!

She is on record for hearing footsteps, so why she didnt hear anything that you claim happened is your problem to answer. Plus she was at the door continously from 12:50 until 1am, and she didnt see or hear Louis either. Talk about making this harder..AND Israels story isnt part of the Inquest, so the facts are his story isnt relevant here anyway...despite all the attempts to make it valuable by member opinion.

[Michael W Richards]

>>so to sum up Brown and Mortimer saw the "young sweetheart" couple and did not see stride and her man.<<

No, because Brown did not see anybody "young" and he identified Mrs Stride.

No, because the young couple specifically stated the were over 100 feet away from that corner at the time.

No, because the young couple did not say they saw Brown.

No, because the woman, not young girl, Brown saw, rejected her potential suitor.

No, because their was no man lighting a Pipe opposite them.

No, because the young couple do not mention seeing Diemshtiz arrive.

No, because the young couple do not mention the two club men running past them yelling for police.

No, because, if true, they would be crucial witnesses and yet they do not rate a mention in Swanson or Abberline's reports.

You use obviously useless storylines to bolster your egotistical rant? Hardly effective. There was no Pipeman, there was no BS man, and in all liklihood, IF there was an Israel Schwartz there at all it was not in the capacity he claims, he likely attended the meeting. In any case, take out all the trash and you are left with Fanny M at her door off and on until 12:50 and at her door until 1am continously. She saw none of these people, nor did she hear them. She did see the young couple, which she later talked to, and thats the couple Brown likely saw...whether they saw him or not. And Spooner never did say that he was nowehere near the corner of Berner, maybe actually reading the statements would help you. He did say he was in the passgeway by the body at around 12:45 though....so how come he didnt see or hear Israels play? Its clear you have opinions with little actual information as the foundation. I know youd like to imagine that everyone just peeked there head into the picture and slipped back out so no-one saw anything, but this is life, not some staged play.

Fannys statement is beyond challenge, because she is the ONLY witness here without a horse in the race and no-one has proven her word cant be trusted. Almost any other witness had reasons to provide their stories, most, to keep the club open and their jobs.

[Michael W Richards]

For crying out loud. Mortimer saw no couple. Zero. She saw Leon Goldstein. James Brown likewise saw no young couple. He saw Liz Stride - whom he identified by her features and not her clothes - and a man. This couple, incidentally, was on the opposite side of Berner Street and were long gone by 12:45.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Fanny says she saw them,... do you need glasses or are you just intellectually impaired on this point? Youve had trouble reconciling the wheat from the chaff on this case for as long as Ive been here, so maybe its time to admit you dont know what the hell went on and move on to annoy other threads.

[Michael W Richards]

The attack would not have lasted long, Jeff. The evidence points to a sudden, unexpected attack. Stride's hands clutched the cachous in shock, and would have remained in her hand as muscles contract immediately after death. I find this more plausible than them conveniently rolling out of her sleeve and into her hand.

Maybe 2 seconds, so you are correct Harry. And JtR didnt ever spend only 2 seconds with any victim.

[Cogidubnus]

So Stride was pushed/dragged nine feet into Dutfield's Yard and killed, still clutching the cachous?

Nah.

Why nine feet? The gateway was 9 feet across, each gate therefore being four feet six inches approx...her feet were just beyond the radius of the swing of the gate, say a couple of yards...perhaps two paces...and if she was already in the gateway, possibly less.

Cheers

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

There was no blood evidence to support that hypothesis, Abby.

Correct again Harry.

[Abby Normal]

She is on record for hearing footsteps, so why she didnt hear anything that you claim happened is your problem to answer. Plus she was at the door continously from 12:50 until 1am, and she didnt see or hear Louis either. Talk about making this harder..AND Israels story isnt part of the Inquest, so the facts are his story isnt relevant here anyway...despite all the attempts to make it valuable by member opinion.

oh dear lord. neither was fanny Mortimer at the inquest nor at her door the whole time-and I guess diemshitz didn't exist either? LOL-what ajoke.Mortimer brings nothing to the table of value, except for people who want to use her to bolster there stupid crackpot conspiracy theories.

[Michael W Richards]

What slightly puzzles me is what she was doing with the bag of cachous in her hand in the first place, as opposed to their being in one of her pockets. Was she offering to share a sweet with her assailant just at the point he struck? Perhaps we should be looking for an easily triggered diabetic

She felt the need to freshen her breath at that time Sam, for the person or people she was there to meet. Not a puzzle when you put the tale she wasnt returning to the lodgehouse that night, the lint brush, the good evening wear and the flower arrangement together. She was presentable, intentionally...for what you might ask, and Ill just say that a date or a job would be equally acceptable reasons.

[Michael W Richards]

oh dear lord. neither was fanny Mortimer at the inquest nor at her door the whole time-and I guess diemshitz didn't exist either? LOL-what ajoke.Mortimer brings nothing to the table of value, except for people who want to use her to bolster there stupid crackpot conspiracy theories.

Louis exists alright, he just didnt arrive at 1am like he vehemently claimed, which should put everything he says into question for someone with a modicum of intellect. Maybe you just missed Fanny stating the fact about 12:50 until 1am,...but it is right there in print.

[Cogidubnus]

She is on record for hearing footsteps, so why she didnt hear anything that you claim happened is your problem to answer. Plus she was at the door continously from 12:50 until 1am, and she didnt see or hear Louis either. Talk about making this harder..AND Israels story isnt part of the Inquest, so the facts are his story isnt relevant here anyway...despite all the attempts to make it valuable by member opinion.

Her bedroom occupied the front of her house...she was perhaps at the rear of the house until repairing to the bedroom to prepare for bedtime, and hearing footsteps go past her door... (per the Daily News 1st October 1888), then went to the front door to begin her vigil in earnest...just after 1245 is suggested by said paper I think I recall, and for about 10 minutes...she then went back in, returning to the bedroom to undress, (during which she heard the cart go by, perhaps just after 1am, and commented upon it to her husband), followed by hearing the hullabaloo from the yard (say 1.05 or so?).

If the murder happened roughly 1240 to 1245, ie at the time of the BSM incident, it is quite possible she was at the back of the house at the time, and missed it...and that between 1240 something and 1am the body lay in the shadows in the passageway until the Diemschutz discovery...this might also explain why some of the other witnesses missed the action?

Cheers

Dave

PS All timings approximate, as suited to timekeeping in the LVP

[Cogidubnus]

IMHO this case is as much about what wasn't witnessed (Mortimer, the lads from the Club, Goldstein, Brown perhaps) as what was (Schwartz)...

[Sam Flynn]

She felt the need to freshen her breath at that time Sam, for the person or people she was there to meet.

She decided to take out her sweets just at the instant she was assaulted and killed? There's still something very odd going on. FWIW, I also think she intended meeting up with someone that night, but that doesn't make the "bag of cachous in hand at point of death" any easier to explain.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We can’t possibly know why she was holding the Cashous. Maybe it was just her habit? Like people eat mints. I don’t think we can deduce anything from their existence.

[Cogidubnus]

She decided to take out her sweets just at the instant she was assaulted and killed? There's still something very odd going on. FWIW, I also think she intended meeting up with someone that night, but that doesn't make the "bag of cachous in hand at point of death" any easier to explain.

I too believe she was meeting someone that night, possibly already had, (and, speculatively, perhaps he'd quickly popped into the club to do some business, leaving her outside)...perhaps she'd just fetched out the cachous, intending to take one to freshen up, when her assailant approached her, and she had no time to replace them as she was blitzed...

Dave

[Sam Flynn]

We can’t possibly know why she was holding the Cashous. Maybe it was just her habit? Like people eat mints. I don’t think we can deduce anything from their existence.

I think we can deduce certain things, Herlock. I eat a lot of mints, but the packets they come in spend most of their time out of sight. If there's a packet in my hand, it either means (a) I'm just about to take a mint out; (b) I've just taken a mint and I'm returning the rest to my pocket; or (c) I'm about to offer a mint to someone nearby.

And so saying (for real!), Sam Flynn pops another Extra Strong Mint in his gob