Stride Bruising

[ukranianphil]

Hello Phil. Welcome to the boards. Good first post.

Why do you think that Liz clenched her fingers on the cachous? A movement towards the neck?

Cheers.
LC

I really don't know, lynn cates, i try and stick to the known facts, you could be right. (will have to look at my notes)
but i think that the killer grabbed liz scarf and as she was chocking, she was forced backwards(there was a knot in the scarf) so liz must have raised her hand to try and get the scarf off, the killer Grabbed her by the shoulders placed her on the ground, and that is when the killer cut her throat, when she was being chocked by the scarf, i believe her fingers tightened round the cachous, then.
Mr.Blackwell said "he could not form an opinion as to when the throat was cut,wither it was when she was pulled back, or on the ground," I think it was when she was kneeling on the ground, the killer took the knife out and slit her throat, just as her right hand was lowering, that's why it was covered with blood.

i am no expert, and i know i could well be proven wrong,

[ukranianphil]

I dont think Dr. phillips was saying Liz was lying on her right side wickerman. I think he was saying the perpetrator was on her right side.

Welcome Phil, from the Ukraine


Even the Great Dr. Phillips can't always be correct.
We know that the left side of Stride's body was in contact with the ground from witnesses, and the physical evidence of this is that mud was found on her left side.
No mud was noted on her back, Phillips appears to have missed that, so no, on the strength of the missing mud, she was not placed down with her back to the floor.



I'm not convinced she was either, but I have withdrawn from previously feeling sure she wasn't to only not being convinced she was.
I'm firmly in the middle, and I still enjoy reading the opinions of both sides.

What might sway me is if we could establish that she had been strangled or choked first. This I believe was the true Ripper technique. I mean something more than a tight fitting scarf.

.

It's those little inconsistencies wickerman, that makes this so fascinating.
I think she was strangled with the scarf. But not the hands, and again i think that is one of the points i think she was not a ripper victim.
Fredrick Blackwell said at her inquest that it was dark, and it was only by the aid of a policeman's light, he examined the body. He said "There was no blood on the clothes, never mentioned mud.

[ukranianphil]

wickerman said:
*Even the Great Dr. Phillips can't always be correct.
We know that the left side of Stride's body was in contact with the ground from witnesses, and the physical evidence of this is that mud was found on her left side.
No mud was noted on her back, Phillips appears to have missed that, so no, on the strength of the missing mud, she was not placed down with her back to the floor.*

IU don't think Dr. Phillips was saying that Liz was on her right side wickerman
If you read his quote, i think he was saying the perpetrator was on her right side.

[lynn cates]

shouldering the burden

Hello Phil. Thanks.

I am with you on the scarf and cachous. But it seems that, once he lets go and does the shoulders, the cachous would spill.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I dont think Dr. phillips was saying Liz was lying on her right side wickerman. I think he was saying the perpetrator was on her right side.

No, thats not what I'm referring to.
Dr Phillips is explaining how he thinks she acquired the bruises, by pressure on both shoulders from the front.
He says she was placed on the ground by someone pushing her down using both shoulders. This suggests she is being pushed down on her back, that is what I am pointing out.
And yes, the perpetrator was likely by her right side.

.

[curious4]

Cachous

Hello Phil. Thanks.

I am with you on the scarf and cachous. But it seems that, once he lets go and does the shoulders, the cachous would spill.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Didn't Blackwell say that he was responsible for spilling the cachous when he made his examination? One of the medical men, anyway.

Clenched hands = sign of strangulation.

Best wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

major change

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

"Didn't Blackwell say that he was responsible for spilling the cachous when he made his examination? One of the medical men, anyway."

Yes. Of course, if some cachous were spilled before that time, it would precipitate a huge change in my opinion of the case.

"Clenched hands = sign of strangulation."

Better:

Clenched hands = movement/pressure to throat.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

But the hands were not clenched though, according to Blackwell. Her right hand was open across her chest. Her left hand was only partially closed.

Although the scarf had been pulled tight there is no indication it was as a result of choking, it could just as easily have been from the killer pulling on the scarf to restrain her as described by Blackwell.
"....the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way."

Apparently, in his opinion, not used to strangle her just pull her off balance?

.

[ukranianphil]

Apologies i was reading your post in the wee small hours.

[ukranianphil]

No, thats not what I'm referring to.
Dr Phillips is explaining how he thinks she acquired the bruises, by pressure on both shoulders from the front.
He says she was placed on the ground by someone pushing her down using both shoulders. This suggests she is being pushed down on her back, that is what I am pointing out.
And yes, the perpetrator was likely by her right side.

.

I see what you mean, when i get back from the football tonight
i am going to go over the inquest again.
I don't think she acquired her bruising from someone pushing from the front.

[curious4]

Corrected

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

"Didn't Blackwell say that he was responsible for spilling the cachous when he made his examination? One of the medical men, anyway."

Yes. Of course, if some cachous were spilled before that time, it would precipitate a huge change in my opinion of the case.

"Clenched hands = sign of strangulation."

Better:

Clenched hands = movement/pressure to throat.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I stand corrected.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[curious4]

Choked

But the hands were not clenched though, according to Blackwell. Her right hand was open across her chest. Her left hand was only partially closed.

Although the scarf had been pulled tight there is no indication it was as a result of choking, it could just as easily have been from the killer pulling on the scarf to restrain her as described by Blackwell.
"....the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way."

Apparently, in his opinion, not used to strangle her just pull her off balance?

.

Hello Wickerman,

How do you feel about choked until she passes out, after just the one cut she takes longer to die, partially regains consciousness and puts her right hand up to her throat because it hurts/feels strange (explaining the blood on her hand) and then lets her hand fall back again across her chest?

Wouldn't she have got mud on her back anyway, just from lying on the ground? It had been raining. Perhaps the yard was regularly swept and cleaned - no mud.

Best wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

pulling off balance

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Apparently, in his opinion, not used to strangle her just pull her off balance?"

As in my re-enactment? OK.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Wouldn't she have got mud on her back anyway, just from lying on the ground? It had been raining. Perhaps the yard was regularly swept and cleaned - no mud.

Best wishes,
C4

I think what Jon has been saying all along is that she lay on her left side - NOT on her back. Thatīs why she had no mud on the back of her clothes, whereas there was a good deal of it on the left side of her clothing. As for the "no mud" suggestion, Phillips effectively dispells any such thing: "There was mud on the left side of the face and it was matted in the head".

So she never was on her back for a split second. She went down on her left side and stayed on it throughout.

All the best,
Fisherman

[curious4]

Mud

Hello Fisherman,

Got me there!

Best wishes,
C4