Stride Bruising

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon,
The doctors concluded that Liz had been choked - enough to make her unconscious presumably, otherwise there would be no point in it. The hand holding the cachous had to be prised open,

Hello Gwyneth.

Blackwell used a different phrase

"...I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view."

The bruises which Dr Phillips referred to: "which I have watched and have seen on two occasions since". I have in an earlier post suggested that he might have been using the word "since" in its old-fashioned sense, as meaning "previously" and in that case that he had seen the same thing twice before, presumably on Chapman and Nichols (or Tabram) and was watching to see whether they developed in the same way,...

I'm not so sure that is what he meant.
Dr Phillips was speaking at the inquest on Wednesday 3rd Oct.
Previously he had seen the same body three times, the first time on Sunday at the crime scene, the second time while conducting the autopsy on Monday where he noted the bruises, and the third time the next day, Tuesday when he returned to the mortuary and measured the neck.

So I don't think Phillips was referring to previous cases, just two earlier viewings of Stride's body.

Hoping we have found some common ground here.

We're getting there

Hello Jon.

"As the act of copulation with prostitutes seems to be with the client at the rear"

Disagree. Interfemoral is usually accomplished face to face, so forward.

Cheers.
LC

If I could remember where the source was for this I would gladly post it but with it being many years ago and, I have always thought it was taken for granted, I never considered a need to establish the point.

I'm not just talking inter-femoral, that is safe sex, I mean conventional intercourse from the rear, and as I mentioned elsewhere, anal sex was also an option.
From the rear is the important point to consider, whatever the details are, it is the finger pressure over the collarbone that I suspect caused the bruises high on the front of her chest.

I don't see another method of causing bruises on the front that does not involve pressure on her back. And no evidence of pressure (bruising) on her back, or mud on her back, was noted.
That suggests to me that the frontal bruises were applied while she was standing, but not leaning back against anything.

.

[lynn cates]

An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign.

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks. (And thanks for no "invisible" choke signs as others have discussed with Liz and Kate.)

'But surely "scarf knotted tightly" and "scarf pulled tight" would imply choking?"

Or pulling. (Have you seen my re-enactment?)

"The bow pulled to the left" - all point to him/her twisting the scarf tight enough for her to lose consciousness, at least."

Or having his arm over her left shoulder and suddenly pulling a slip knot taut.

"Would there be marks left if he/she only choked her for a short time? And how much would these marks be obliterated by the cut - it was very close to the scarf?"

Hard to say. But neither Liz nor Kate had such--Polly and Annie did. (Yet I am called "idiot" for remarking the difference.)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

bruising remark

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Well and good. but, as the doctors averred, the shoulder bruises need not have been precipitated at that time.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hard to say. But neither Liz nor Kate had such--Polly and Annie did. (Yet I am called "idiot" for remarking the difference.)

Cheers.
LC[/QUOTE]

Certainly does not make you an idiot. For the Stride scenario the grabbing of the scarf provides some sort of an explanation. For Kate I'm still lost on that one. Always bugged me.

[lynn cates]

clear signs

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Yes, it's troubling. Two ladies with clear signs, the rest, not.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Not a problem Lynn

It does not remove possibilties but should be seriously considered. To stay remotely on topic, Schwartz provides a quite sound explanation for the bruising. If HE is sound or not becomes pertinent. I'm not completely convinced or disuaded. Sorry, Bourbon Whiskey! Woooo Hoooo! I am quite fond of some of what you relay Lynn.

[curious4]

Helllo all.

I believe Liz's odds and ends were found in her jacket pocket.

Best wishes,
C4

Ignore this, went too far back in the thread!

[curious4]

False prophets

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks. (And thanks for no "invisible" choke signs as others have discussed with Liz and Kate.)

'But surely "scarf knotted tightly" and "scarf pulled tight" would imply choking?"

Or pulling. (Have you seen my re-enactment?)

"The bow pulled to the left" - all point to him/her twisting the scarf tight enough for her to lose consciousness, at least."

Or having his arm over her left shoulder and suddenly pulling a slip knot taut.

"Would there be marks left if he/she only choked her for a short time? And how much would these marks be obliterated by the cut - it was very close to the scarf?"

Hard to say. But neither Liz nor Kate had such--Polly and Annie did. (Yet I am called "idiot" for remarking the difference.)

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

"and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Perhaps Jack discovered that it was much quicker to choke his victims into unconsciousness, as opposed to strangling them for longer, and this is why there are no clear signs of strrangulation?

No, haven't seen your re-enactment - can you post a link? I would like to see it - all is grist to my mill lol. (Not referring to you as a false prophet, by the way!)

All good wishes,
Gwyneth

[curious4]

Hello Jon,

Doesn"t "lodged between" imply that the cachous were stuck between finger and thumb?

Dr Phillips's remarks can, of course, be interpreted both ways (I will find that reference!) but why would he keep going back to look?

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[Jon Guy]

What are the signs of strangulation with Nichols?

I know she had bitten her tongue but she`d had her throat cut with whilst a hand was held over her mouth, but what are the signs of strangulation in this case?

[curious4]

Strangulation

Hello Jon,

Quoting from The Complete History of Jack the Ripper, Philip Sugden, "The fact that Polly's throat was severed when she was lying down and with so little spillage of blood, together with the apparent abscence of any scream, points to prior strangulation." and "We know from police reports that Polly's face was discoloured and her tongue slightly lacerated".

Also, the doctor mentions a small bruise on the left side of her throat and an abrasion on the right. There was no sign of a struggle.

Best wishes,
C4

[Jon Guy]

Hi C4

I appreciate the weight of a Sugden quote!!

But, I don`t know about little spillage of blood as Nichols clothing was sodden as it had pooled by her neck and run under her body into the back of her coat.

But no clear signs of strangulation.

She could have bitten he tongue when she was having her throat cut, as we know from the finger marks that a hand was held over her mouth.

Her face was discoloured because of bruising and the fact that she had lost most of her blood.

[curious4]

Strangulation

Hello Jon,

Very lazy of me not to read the inquest report myself! Done now and it states that there was a bruise on the left side of the throat and an abrasion on the right side. This points to (to me anyway) that she was gripped by the throat and throttled. The bruises on each side of the face point towards him/her gripping the chin before cutting the throat - gripping hard perhaps because he/she was getting more exited by then. I can't see anything that points to him holding his hand over her mouth.

I think bleeding to death would leave her with a pale face, not a discoloured one. Blood would pool in the face after death perhaps, but only if she was lying on her face, which she wasn't.

Over to you!

Best wishes,
C4

[Jon Guy]

Hello C4

Very lazy of me not to read the inquest report myself! Done now and it states that there was a bruise on the left side of the throat and an abrasion on the right side.

I can`t see the bit about bruises on and abrasions on the throat?
Are you able to copy and paste those details off the inquest report as the report I`m looking at doesn`t have those details.

[curious4]

Daily News

Hello Jon,

Sorry, no good at pasting, but the quote is from: Press reports, Daily News, 3rd Sept. 1888, under the heading "The Inquest" and the paragraph starts with "Dr Llewellyn, 152 Whitechapel St.

Hope this will help.

Cheers,
C4