Stride Bruising

[curious4]

By the hair

Back again!

If he/she wanted to pull Liz off balance, why not grab her by the hair? This would have put her throat in a good position for cutting as well.

Best wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

by accident or design

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

What about grabbing and whatever came to hand?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Back again!

If he/she wanted to pull Liz off balance, why not grab her by the hair? This would have put her throat in a good position for cutting as well.

Best wishes,
C4

Hair pulling might make her scream, pulling a scarf tight might gag any vocal response.
What was her hair style that night, was it long enough to grasp?
Was her scarf used as a head scarf?, covering her hair?
She was wearing a bonnet wasn't she?

Are you struggling to accept he might have pulled her down by the scarf?
It was pulled tight according to Blackwell, how do you think it got that way?
Have you read the inquest?
.

[Wickerman]

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

What about grabbing and whatever came to hand?

Cheers.
LC

Who placed those damn cachous in her hand, and why?

.

[curious4]

Bonnet

Hair pulling might make her scream, pulling a scarf tight might gag any vocal response.
What was her hair style that night, was it long enough to grasp?
Was her scarf used as a head scarf?, covering her hair?
She was wearing a bonnet wasn't she?

Are you struggling to accept he might have pulled her down by the scarf?
It was pulled tight according to Blackwell, how do you think it got that way?
Have you read the inquest?
.

Hello Wickerman,

You are quite right, forgot the bonnet. Yes, read the inquest report several times. My point was that an abusive man will often grab a woman by the hair. I don't think this was a domestic incident. I do think she was choked first, as Jack was prone to do, and that he was interrupted, just as was thought at the time. If she was choked, she would have collapsed, no need to pull her over. Doesn't explain the bruises though, unless he grabbed her by the shoulders as she was falling, to place her in the right position.

Must learn to express myself more clearly and not multi-task when posting.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Grabbing

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

What about grabbing and whatever came to hand?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn.

Often the case in my experience. No, I think he/she grabbed the scarf with a purpose in mind - to choke a la Thugee, not just to pull her over.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[lynn cates]

So that's it!

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Who placed those damn cachous in her hand, and why?"

Cute.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

abortive attempt

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

"I think he/she grabbed the scarf with a purpose in mind - to choke a la Thugee, not just to pull her over."

So, an abortive attempt?

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Strangle

Hello Lynn,

No, not at all - the Thugees were quite good at it by all accounts. And she was choked.

Cheers,
Gwyneth

[Wickerman]

... I do think she was choked first, as Jack was prone to do, and that he was interrupted, just as was thought at the time. If she was choked, she would have collapsed, no need to pull her over. Doesn't explain the bruises though, unless he grabbed her by the shoulders as she was falling, to place her in the right position.

Hello Gwyneth.

I'm quite open to the possibility she was choked, I just don't want to believe it through convenience, I need justification.
No mention was made of clenched hands, her tongue was not protruding, no mention of petechia on the face or neck.

The location of the bruises around the collarbone are not precise, they could result from her simply being a prostitute. Occupational wear & tear

As the act of copulation with prostitutes seems to be with the client at the rear, the man needs somewhere to grip. While he stands behind her he is grasping her shoulders with both hands, this just might leave pressure marks from his fingers over the collarbone.
I'm suspicious these marks are evidence she was a prostitute as they are noted on Chapman and, was it Coles or McKenzie?

.

[curious4]

In reply

Hello Jon,

The doctors concluded that Liz had been choked - enough to make her unconscious presumably, otherwise there would be no point in it. The hand holding the cachous had to be prised open, which could be interpreted as clenched, but I agree that there did not appear to be any other signs of choking mentioned, as in the case of Martha Tabram, whose face was reported to be so swollen as to be almost unrecognisable, I believe, and the tongue protruding, as in Chapman.

The bruises which Dr Phillips referred to: "which I have watched and have seen on two occasions since". I have in an earlier post suggested that he might have been using the word "since" in its old-fashioned sense, as meaning "previously" and in that case that he had seen the same thing twice before, presumably on Chapman and Nichols (or Tabram) and was watching to see whether they developed in the same way, but he could just as well have meant that he had gone back to Stride twice and examined her bruises. I have seen the word "since" used as "previously" in a contemporary report somewhere in my reading, but would be hard put to find it again. If I do, I will post it!

As regards preferred positions, I have to admit that the male of the species is more knowledgeable than the female (this female, anyway), presumably something you discuss between yourselves on occasion (not that I accept it as one hundred per cent fully proved every time, but, as you have said, hard put to prove it either way). One question does spring to mind, though. If A has her hands against the wall, and B has his hands on her shoulders, who is holding up all the skirts? (Joking!)

Hoping we have found some common ground here.

All good wishes,
Gwyneth

[lynn cates]

It's a sign!

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

"the Thugees were quite good at it by all accounts. And she was choked."

OK. But surely there were no signs of that?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Foward, the light brigade!

Hello Jon.

"As the act of copulation with prostitutes seems to be with the client at the rear"

Disagree. Interfemoral is usually accomplished face to face, so forward.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

As the act of copulation with prostitutes seems to be with the client at the rear, the man needs somewhere to grip. While he stands behind her he is grasping her shoulders with both hands, this just might leave pressure marks from his fingers over the collarbone.
I'm suspicious these marks are evidence she was a prostitute as they are noted on Chapman and, was it Coles or McKenzie?

.

Hi,
Thanks, very interesting observation.

curious

[curious4]

Hello Lynn,

Bugrit! Can't find anywhere the doctors actually said that she was choked now! But surely "scarf knotted tightly" and "scarf pulled tight" would imply choking? "The bow pulled to the left" - all point to him/her twisting the scarf tight enough for her to lose consciousness, at least.

Would there be marks left if he/she only choked her for a short time? And how much would these marks be obliterated by the cut - it was very close to the scarf?

These are some of the questions which occur to C4 when reading the accounts of this horrible crime hehe.

Best wishes,
C4/Gwyneth