Stride Bruising

[Observer]

Hi Wickerman

I was thinking more along the lines of the doctors actually discussing the cachous (not grapes) and Diemschutz misheard their conversation, he thinking they were discussing grapes.

Why he would do this I don't know.

They must have discussed the cachous as they were found surely. I'd doubt they used the term cachous, on the spot, to describe them. My guess would be sweets, bon bons perhaps.

As you say the grapes (if they existed) could have been purchased elsewhere.

It has been mentioned some time back that the package Smith saw could well have been the grapes wrapped in newspaper.

Regards

Observer

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"We're still avoiding the issue of why Diemschitz and Kozebrodski claimed to see grapes."

Well, the obvious answer is that one, the other, or both, thought they saw grapes.

Is something a priori wrong with Tom's blood clots thesis?

Cheers.
LC

Well, your asking an ex-butcher if clotted blood can look like grapes, as opposed to what.....clotted blood?

What do you think the answer is?

I suppose we then have to assume that both Eddowes and Kelly were awash in grapes

[lynn cates]

time for a change

Hello Tecs.

"Maybe he's undergoing a re-evaluation?"

Maybe he has been evaluated as many times as his story has changed? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

obvious answer

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"We're still avoiding the issue of why Diemschitz and Kozebrodski claimed to see grapes."

Well, the obvious answer is that one, the other, or both, thought they saw grapes.

Is something a priori wrong with Tom's blood clots thesis?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman

The only other angle I can think of is if Diemschutz (got it right there Greg haha) watching Blackwell, and Philips retrieve the cachous somehow got it into his head that the two doctors were discussing grapes as having been in the hand of Liz Stride.

Hi Observer.
Its just that I don't think the doctors had any reason to discuss grapes at the scene. The question posed at the inquest seems to have been the first they had heard of the issue.

We also have the observations of Rosenfield and Harstein to take into account, that before the yard was washed down they saw the grape stalk and flower petals scattered about.

Are they part of some ludicrous conspiracy too?

Failing that, we have to take another look at Packer, and consider whether he was in actual fact telling the truth.

It may be a little unlady-like for your date to been seen carrying a half pound bag of grapes. So, perhaps the man held the bag and Stride only had no more than a couple in her hand at a time.

On the other hand, if Packer is lying, then we might look at the market stalls set up in the High St. where everything was sold at all hours of the day and night. Is this where the grapes were bought?

There is one major difference Wicker, we have a description of how Packer's man spoke, rough voice, rather quick in speaking. Pity he didn't comment on whether it was an English, or foreign accent.

And one other detail that comes to mind. Smith's suspect carried a newspaper parcel.
Packer said he sold the half-pound of grapes in a paper bag, or was it a newspaper 'bag'? I mean, like a 'parcel' of fish and chips would look.

[Observer]

I think we should open a thread on how many spellings we can come up
with for Mr. Dimshits...!


Greg

Haha, absolutely Greg. Good job Superman's arch enemy Mr Mxyziptip wasn't involved, hold on Mr Myxzptlk.

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Hi Wickerman

Then so is two witnesses claiming to see grapes, and, the fact a grape stalk was found in the drain, and, fruit stains on her handkerchief

The only other angle I can think of is if Diemschutz (got it right there Greg haha) watching Blackwell, and Philips retrieve the cachous somehow got it into his head that the two doctors were discussing grapes as having been in the hand of Liz Stride. Failing that, we have to take another look at Packer, and consider whether he was in actual fact telling the truth.

I don't see a major difference between the description, the location, and the time of sighting, given by Smith and that given by Packer. The question is, how come?

There is one major difference Wicker, we have a description of how Packer's man spoke, rough voice, rather quick in speaking. Pity he didn't comment on whether it was an English, or foreign accent.

But seriously, an important revelation held back by a hungry press for three days is hard to accept. I think it more likely that Packer sized the moment and jumped on the bandwagon.

I'd agree. His description does seem to be a compilation of the various witness statements readily available in the newspapers.

One thing I'd add, the contradictions that permeate the Liz Stride slaying are frustrating to say the least.

Regards

Observer

[GregBaron]

How Dim is Mr. Sh*ts...?

If Deimshutz had observed grapes in Stride's right hand, then the hand would have been closed around the grapes.

If Deimsgutz saw grapes in Stride's hand

I still don't know why Diemschitz & Kozebrodski saw grapes if they were not there.

I think we should open a thread on how many spellings we can come up
with for Mr. Dimshits...!


Greg

[curious4]

Potatoes

How many grapes are we talking about, two, four, twenty?
Half a pound of grapes is too many to hold in your fingers, so if she had any in her hand is was not more than a couple.



Quite so, but IF she had spit these out we have the reason why Phillips did not find any.



Her right hand was across her breast, anything held in her fingers could easily have slipped down in the dark, remember her chest faced the wall so in the pitch black below her abdomen nothing would be visible.



The hand which held the cachous was extended away from the body. Two or three black grapes dropped in the mud and blood?, in the dark , may have not been seen until the body was removed, and then stepped on in the darkness.
If I can see a reasonable explanation for an incident I tend not to dismiss it. Even though it may not be a popular position to take.



Ok, yes, but when we read "right hand" when everyone else said "left hand" then we must consider that either the press got the hand wrong or, they got it right, and this was another detail not mentioned by others.



You tell me who removed the cachous because Blackwell nor Phillips could agree. So lets not run away with the idea that Blackwell observed everything correctly that night



Had they fallen from her fingers by the time he arrived?
PC Lamb had grasped her right hand to feel her pulse before Blackwell arrived, that action might cause anything to slip from her fingers.

Hello,

Liz was supposed to have eaten potatoes.

It has occured to me that the victorians, especially the poor, and some swedes still today cook (and sometimes eat) potatoes with the skins still on. Could the doctor have mistaken the skins of grapes for thinnish potato skins?

Best wishes,
C4

[Tecs]

Do you think Packer invented his story regarding the grapes as a result of reading an account that grapes had been found in the hand of Liz Stride?

Hi all,

I thought that Packer was ruled out years ago as a decent witness? I did notice though, that in the Scotland Yard photofit from a few years back, Packer's was one of the descriptions used to form the composite. Maybe he's undergoing a re-evaluation?

I always thought that he may have just taken the chance to do some free advertising. Knowing that "slumming" was going on and people were visiting the area looking at the murder sites etc he could have used the chance to advertise his business. Buy your lovely grapes from the man who actually sold some to the killer. Stop and have a chat munching on Matt's lavverly wares, whilst observing the place where poor Liz died.

It's often said that the poor Eastenders couldn't afford grapes (which makes you wonder just who he usually sold them to...?) but the out of towners could. And it would make Berner St a more desirable place to look at than the other nonentitous sites.

regards,

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

But if it's a STALK, where did the grapes go? If the reports are correct, there were grapes remaining when in her hand.

Cheers.
LC

You think they wouldn't separate from the stalk after being swilled on the yard?

We're still avoiding the issue of why Diemschitz and Kozebrodki claimed to see grapes.

[lynn cates]

whence?

Hello Jon. Thanks.

But if it's a STALK, where did the grapes go? If the reports are correct, there were grapes remaining when in her hand.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Mr Cates beat me to it. Liz in life standing with cachous in one hand and grapes in the other? I don't think so.

I agree entirely with you both, something retained in both hands is questionable.

Then so is two witnesses claiming to see grapes, and, the fact a grape stalk was found in the drain, and, fruit stains on her handkerchief?

However the grapes ,if they existed, make a great difference to the case. If Deimsgutz saw grapes in Stride's hand, then Packer in all likelyhood told the truth, and we would have another description at our disposal of a potential culprit for the murder of Liz Stride.

I don't see a major difference between the description, the location, and the time of sighting, given by Smith and that given by Packer. The question is, how come?

"Ok, but Packer was not mentioned in the press until the 4th, Thursday. Thats a long time for a reporter to sit on a story when the city is in an uproar, isn't it?"

It is yes. But, so long as this is not impossible I don't think it wise to rule it out.

I guess I asked for that.

But seriously, an important revelation held back by a hungry press for three days is hard to accept. I think it more likely that Packer sized the moment and jumped on the bandwagon.

[Observer]

Mr Cates beat me to it. Liz in life standing with cachous in one hand and grapes in the other? I don't think so.

However the grapes ,if they existed, make a great difference to the case. If Deimsgutz saw grapes in Stride's hand, then Packer in all likelyhood told the truth, and we would have another description at our disposal of a potential culprit for the murder of Liz Stride.

"Alright, so you don't think her hand could have been relaxed across her breast with a couple of grapes under the fingers"

No

"Ok, but Packer was not mentioned in the press until the 4th, Thursday. Thats a long time for a reporter to sit on a story when the city is in an uproar, isn't it?"


It is yes. But, so long as this is not impossible I don't think it wise to rule it out.

[lynn cates]

fistful of . . .

Hello Jon.

"The grapes are a bit of a fringe issue for me, whether they existed or not makes no difference to the case that I can see."

I largely agree. But consider this. If Liz had grapes, would they not most likely be held in her right hand, the cachous in left?

Now, regarding her purported activities and location, how many are consonant with having both hands full of such consumable items?

Cheers.
LC