Stride Bruising

[Wickerman]

Right ok Wickerman, but I beg to differ. The mere grasping of the wrist by Lamb would not have caused the hand to open, which was the postion it was in when Blackwell arrived. If Deimshutz had observed grapes in Stride's right hand, then the hand would have been closed around the grapes.

Alright, so you don't think her hand could have been relaxed across her breast with a couple of grapes under the fingers?
Lamb raised her hand slightly to get his fingers under the wrist and grapes slipped out into the darkness?
So long as this is not impossible I don't think it wise to rule it out.

The grapes are a bit of a fringe issue for me, whether they existed or not makes no difference to the case that I can see.

I believe it is possible that Packer was interviewed by a reporter on the day of the murder, and he told him his story about Stride the man and the grapes. The reporter then interviews Deimshutz, and then for poetic license adds the "fact" that Deimshutz saw grapes in Strides hand.

Ok, but Packer was not mentioned in the press until the 4th, Thursday. Thats a long time for a reporter to sit on a story when the city is in an uproar, isn't it?

[Observer]

Right ok Wickerman, but I beg to differ. The mere grasping of the wrist by Lamb would not have caused the hand to open, which was the postion it was in when Blackwell arrived. If Deimshutz had observed grapes in Stride's right hand, then the hand would have been closed around the grapes.

I believe it is possible that Packer was interviewed by a reporter on the day of the murder, and he told him his story about Stride the man and the grapes. The reporter then interviews Deimshutz, and then for poetic license adds the "fact" that Deimshutz saw grapes in Strides hand.

[Wickerman]

Then why did Pc Lamb not report seeing any grapes in her hand? Also Blackwell reported the hand as open, if she had held any grapes in the right hand then surely the hand would have been in a closed position. The fingers of left hand were partially closed which is consistent with holding on to something, why not the right hand. None of the Jews present touched the body, Spooner merewly felt the chin. As you say the first person to touch the hand was Lamb, he didn't see any Grapes, and yet Deimshutz had seen them before Lamb arrived.

Correct, but her right hand was palm down, her left hand was palm up.

It is possible Lamb was more concerned about keeping the crowd back, as he said, than noticing if anything was in her fingers when he grasped her hand.

I still don't know why Diemschitz & Kozebrodski saw grapes if they were not there.

Why do you think that is?

[Wickerman]

You didn't answer my question. Do you think Packer invented his story regarding the grapes as a result of reading an account that grapes had been found in the hand of Liz Stride?

Do I think he could have invented the story? - Yes.

Am I sure he did? - Certainly not. But, he is not a reliable witness because he did change his story. So, what else about him should we be wary of?

Even if he lied about the grapes, does that mean the man he saw with Stride never existed?
He does place the suspect at the right spot, opposite the club, and at the right time, 12:30, the same as PC Smith. But this was before Smith gave his evidence at the inquest.
So, how did Packer know where this man stood and at what time?

And, the descriptions of the two suspects (by Smith & Packer) are not significantly different.

So, is there something to it or not?

[Observer]

Then why did Pc Lamb not report seeing any grapes in her hand? Also Blackwell reported the hand as open, if she had held any grapes in the right hand then surely the hand would have been in a closed position. The fingers of left hand were partially closed which is consistent with holding on to something, why not the right hand. None of the Jews present touched the body, Spooner merewly felt the chin. As you say the first person to touch the hand was Lamb, he didn't see any Grapes, and yet Deimshutz had seen them before Lamb arrived.

[Wickerman]

Yes and the drains were checked, no sign of any grapes. And how could grapes be swilled away?

How many grapes are we talking about, two, four, twenty?
Half a pound of grapes is too many to hold in your fingers, so if she had any in her hand is was not more than a couple.

No not in her body, but no trace of grapes were found in her stomach anyway, and just because you spit out the pips that doesn't mean Stride adopted the same procedure.

Quite so, but IF she had spit these out we have the reason why Phillips did not find any.

No, why did Dr Blackwell not mention seeing any grapes?

Her right hand was across her breast, anything held in her fingers could easily have slipped down in the dark, remember her chest faced the wall so in the pitch black below her abdomen nothing would be visible.

He spotted the cachous, surely grapes would have been much more visible, why did he not mention seeing any grapes?

The hand which held the cachous was extended away from the body. Two or three black grapes dropped in the mud and blood?, in the dark , may have not been seen until the body was removed, and then stepped on in the darkness.
If I can see a reasonable explanation for an incident I tend not to dismiss it. Even though it may not be a popular position to take.

The paper Spooner saw were the cachous which were wrapped in paper.

Ok, yes, but when we read "right hand" when everyone else said "left hand" then we must consider that either the press got the hand wrong or, they got it right, and this was another detail not mentioned by others.

Dr Blackwell did not mention two pieces of paper in her hand, in fact he stated that her right hand was open, and her left hand contained the cachous.

You tell me who removed the cachous because Blackwell nor Phillips could agree. So lets not run away with the idea that Blackwell observed everything correctly that night

Why did Blackwell fail to see any grapes?

Had they fallen from her fingers by the time he arrived?
PC Lamb had grasped her right hand to feel her pulse before Blackwell arrived, that action might cause anything to slip from her fingers.

[Observer]

He seemed to be a publicity seeker, or at least became one.

You didn't answer my question. Do you think Packer invented his story regarding the grapes as a result of reading an account that grapes had been found in the hand of Liz Stride?

[Observer]

The yard was swilled down before 4:30 on Sunday morning, while it was still dark.

Yes and the drains were checked, no sign of any grapes. And how could grapes be swilled away?

In her body?
The autopsy was conducted 38 hrs after her death. Providing she spit out the skins & pips, as many (including myself) do, then her stomach acids (which do not dissipate at death) had 38 hrs to make the watery pulp unrecognizable.

No not in her body, but no trace of grapes were found in her stomach anyway, and just because you spit out the pips that doesn't mean Stride adopted the same procedure.

No, why did Dr Blackwell not mention seeing any grapes? He spotted the cachous, surely grapes would have been much more visible, why did he not mention seeing any grapes?

Spooner did see an empty piece of paper in her right hand. Wouldn't the grapes have been sold in a folded paper sachet?

The paper Spooner saw were the cachous which were wrapped in paper. You know that, I know that, everyone knows that. Dr Blackwell did not mention two pieces of paper in her hand, in fact he stated that her right hand was open, and her left hand contained the cachous.

Why did Blackwell fail to see any grapes?

[Wickerman]

It could also be considered that if Packer chose to invent his part in the presence of the grapes, he might also have been careful to provide a description of the purchaser which was consistent with an already published description of a suspect?

In the Monday morning papers (Daily News), PC Smiths suspect made known:

The following is a description of a man stated to have been seen in company with the woman murdered in Berner-street, and for whom the police are looking:-Age 28; height 5ft. 8in.; complexion dark; no whiskers; black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; carried a newspaper parcel; was of respectable appearance.

No other description (from Marshall or Brown) was announced until Friday 5th Oct. The police obtained this next description from Packer by the 4th.

"...a young man from 25-30 about 5.7. with long black coat buttoned up – soft felt hat, kind of Yankee hat rather broad shoulders"

[lynn cates]

Murder, he wrote.

Hello Velma. Thanks.

Yes, murder is illegal in many places. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

So are you saying that Packer read about the grapes in the newspaper and devcided to include it in his statement to the press?

He seemed to be a publicity seeker, or at least became one.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman

At what point were grapes first mentioned in the press?

Monday morning papers, which because they go to press overnight, the accounts were taken down on Sunday.

Some questions. When they searched the Yard the next day why were there no signs of any grapes, stalks pips?

The yard was swilled down before 4:30 on Sunday morning, while it was still dark.

Why did the medical officials not mention the prescense of grapes?

In her body?
The autopsy was conducted 38 hrs after her death. Providing she spit out the skins & pips, as many (including myself) do, then her stomach acids (which do not dissipate at death) had 38 hrs to make the watery pulp unrecognizable.

Spooner never mentioned seeing any grapes.

Spooner did see an empty piece of paper in her right hand. Wouldn't the grapes have been sold in a folded paper sachet?

[Observer]

So are you saying that Packer read about the grapes in the newspaper and devcided to include it in his statement to the press?

[DRoy]

Jon,

That's exactly what I meant and why I think the grapes existed. It's easy to dismiss the grapes if all that is considered is Packer's story(s).

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

Hi Wickerman

At what point were grapes first mentioned in the press? I know there's a joke there but ignore it.

Some questions. When they searched the Yard the next day why were there no signs of any grapes, stalks pips? Why did the medical officials not mention the prescense of grapes? Spooner never mentioned seeing any grapes. And of course no trace of grape skins flesh pips were found in Liz Stride's stomach.

Regards

Observer