The Murder of Elizabeth Stride

[mariab]

That makes 2 publications containing facsimili about which I had no idea.
But why is Tom entitled to say “memos“ instead of “reports“, and how come he uses plural, while there's only ONE Abberline report pertaining to the Stride case in The Ultimate? Are there more Abberline reports published elsewhere? I own SY investigates, but won't be able to properly read it before July.

[Wickerman]

...
His report does conflict with the Star's version significantly as it places Pipeman across the street instead of in front of the Nelson with a knife. This was extensively debated recently over at the other forums with Stewart and myself taking the position that what Abberline and Swanson described as being the most accurate. I'm sure Stewart remembers this debate very well.

Yes Hunter, and this little inconsistency bothers me.

I don't like discarding it because if we do, we are left with a man assaulting a woman, pulling or pushing her, casting her down, and then what...? - nothing!

I don't like accepting it because we are left asking why did Schwartz lie to the police? Not that witnesses never lied, but Schwartz volunteered to go to the police, he was not dragged in by the scruff of the neck.

So here we have a woman who was murdered by a knife cut across the throat, and there we have a man running towards her, knife in hand, within minutes of her death..... and we reject him out of hand!

What I asked before was, "what made Schwartz run from the scene?"
A stranger shouting "Lipski" is not going to do it, but seeing a man produce a knife just might!

Did the Star make it up, did Schwartz make it up?
Did the police deliberately withhold this detail?

Just another detail we choose to ignore rather than face the question?

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

motive

Hello Jon.

"I don't like accepting it because we are left asking why did Schwartz lie to the police? Not that witnesses never lied, but Schwartz volunteered to go to the police, he was not dragged in by the scruff of the neck."

Is it at all possible that, IF he lied, his motivation would have been to deflect possible blame from the club and its members?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

we are left with a man assaulting a woman, pulling or pushing her, casting her down, and then what...? - nothing!

What do you mean “nothing“, Wickerman? She was found slain 15'min. later!

we are left asking why did Schwartz lie to the police? Not that witnesses never lied, but Schwartz volunteered to go to the police, he was not dragged in by the scruff of the neck.

There is the plausible possibility that Schwartz was “dragged by the scuff of the neck“ by William Wess to come along testify. See also Lynn Cates' post below.

So here we have a woman who was murdered by a knife cut across the throat, and there we have a man running towards her, knife in hand, within minutes of her death..... and we reject him out of hand! (...) Just another detail we choose to ignore rather than face the question?

We're not at all rejecting Pipeman as Stride's killer or ignoring details, we're having reservations against Schwartz' statement to the Star (as it contrasts with the police reports), and we're examining the big picture.

Did the Star make it up, did Schwartz make it up? Did the police deliberately withhold this detail?

Very pertinent questions.

[Wickerman]

What do you mean “nothing“, Wickerman? She was found slain 15'min. later!

Hi Maria.
I mean, there is nothing to get us from an assault in the gateway (A), to her body lying dead from a slice to the throat (B).

There's "nothing" to get us from (A) to (B), we have "nothing", if we reject the man with the murder weapon.

There is the plausible possibility that Schwartz was “dragged by the scuff of the neck“ by William Wess to come along testify. See also Lynn Cates' post below.

Are you suggesting Wess was the Interpreter who accompanied Schwartz?

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Is it at all possible that, IF he lied, his motivation would have been to deflect possible blame from the club and its members?

Hi Lynn.
Was Schwartz affiliated with this club?

Jon

[mariab]

Hello Wickerman.

I mean, there is nothing to get us from an assault in the gateway (A), to her body lying dead from a slice to the throat (B).There's "nothing" to get us from (A) to (B), we have "nothing", if we reject the man with the murder weapon.

Again, we're NOT rejecting Pipeman, we're just establishing that a newspaper report is less an accurate source than internal police reports. In the next issue of the Star (October 2), it said that the police were mistrusting Schwartz' testimony.
There HAS to be something (that we don't know about) to get us from an assault in the gateway to Stride's death by slice to the throat inside of Dutfield's Yard, because it HAPPENED. Perhaps BS and Pipeman worked in tandem. If not, Pipeman might have assaulted Stride after BS.

Are you suggesting Wess was the Interpreter who accompanied Schwartz?

Precisely. Wess accompanied Leon Goldstein to the same precint as an interpreter. A connection with the IWEC might explain why (according to the Star report of October 2) the police were initially having some doubts pertaining to Schwartz's story.
Incidentally, this is an hypothesis generated by Tom Wescott years ago.

[mariab]

Was Schwartz affiliated with this club?

I'm researching this in French spy reports about anarchist activity in Victorian Whitechapel. There's evidence, but still inconclusive. It'll be also cross-referenced with Der Arbeter Fraint.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wickerman. Logic, but not solid evidence, suggests Schwartz was familiar with the Berner Street club. Also, Swanson's report does not specifically state that Pipeman was on the board school side. Due to Swanson's rather rushed writing, it's ambiguous. But it's important to note that the Star and Swanson do not comflict on many points.

But why is Tom entitled to say “memos“ instead of “reports“

Stewart either considers me a lost cause or just prefers to avoid exchange with me whenever possible. However, my use of 'memo' didn't feel right even as I wrote it, and they're certainly not 'reports'. I probably should have said Abberline's replies or responses.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Stewart either considers me a lost cause or just prefers to avoid exchange with me whenever possible.

Hilarious thought. I'm pretty sure Mr. Evans has seen your post about wanting to figure out what you were saying later on. I'm also pretty sure Mr. Evans is fast asleep by now, which is a much healthier lifestyle than of some other Casebookers, particularly mine.
Tom, you misled me with “memos“. Tsk tsk tsk. I was prepared to keep this a secret even under the Spanish Inquisition, but then you came out with it yourself.

[Wickerman]

Hello Wickerman.

Again, we're NOT rejecting Pipeman, we're just establishing that a newspaper report is less an accurate source than internal police reports.

I'm just trying to establish in my own mind whether you are talking about the police version of Pipeman, or the Star's version, ie; Pipeman=Knifeman?

Precisely. Wess accompanied Leon Goldstein to the same precint as an interpreter.

Ok, thanks, I must have missed that point.

A connection with the IWEC might explain why (according to the Star report of October 2) the police were initially having some doubts pertaining to Schwartz's story.
Incidentally, this is an hypothesis generated by Tom Wescott years ago.

So you think politics played such a significant role that the police might discard the witness (Schwartz) because of his (possible?) membership at the IWEC?

Thanks, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick. I think it's possible - and certainly reasonable - that the police would to some degree doubt Schwartz's veracity if a connection to the club could be shown. This might explain why the police were initially taking him with a grain of salt.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

....Also, Swanson's report does not specifically state that Pipeman was on the board school side. Due to Swanson's rather rushed writing, it's ambiguous...

Hi Tom.
Ah yes, then this must be the "on crossing", "opposite", argument that became so hot several weeks ago on Howards domain?

Thankyou, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick. I don't know as I haven't read it, but probably so. Apparently I need to. Was it convincing? Do you post as Wickerman over there as well? Regarding Schwartz, what made me first think he might be affiliated with the club is that he lived on Berner Street until the day of the murder, and the club is the only place I'm aware of that took in young, immigrant Jews. The fact that his wife moved in his absence suggesting a lack of furniture or fixed belongings, so it all fit together. Also, imagine yourself a foriegner in a country where most don't speak English (no offense if you're bi/multi-lingual), and right there on your street was a club full of men your age speaking your language. Can you imagine Schwartz NOT popping in? But I stress that i don't believe he was a member. Wess said as much himself, but wouldn't give the press his name. Yet he knew about the event. All this adds up to a strong likelihood Wess and Schwartz knew each other.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick. I don't know as I haven't read it, but probably so. Apparently I need to. Was it convincing? Do you post as Wickerman over there as well?

Er, ...No, and Yes, in that order
:-)

Regarding Schwartz, what made me first think he might be affiliated with the club is that he lived on Berner Street until the day of the murder, and the club is the only place I'm aware of that took in young, immigrant Jews. The fact that his wife moved in his absence suggesting a lack of furniture or fixed belongings, so it all fit together. Also, imagine yourself a foriegner in a country where most don't speak English (no offense if you're bi/multi-lingual), and right there on your street was a club full of men your age speaking your language. Can you imagine Schwartz NOT popping in? But I stress that i don't believe he was a member. Wess said as much himself, but wouldn't give the press his name. Yet he knew about the event. All this adds up to a strong likelihood Wess and Schwartz knew each other.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Makes sense to me...

Thankyou for the insight, Best Wishes, Jon S.