The Murder of Elizabeth Stride

[mariab]

I'm just trying to establish in my own mind whether you are talking about the police version of Pipeman, or the Star's version, ie; Pipeman=Knifeman?

Yes, I was referring to the Star report and the alleged knife in Pipeman's hands, as I assume you were too.
Pertaining to the other questions, they have all been answered by Tom, so no need to bother, I guess.

The fact that his wife moved in his absence suggesting a lack of furniture or fixed belongings

Unless Schwartz' wife was built like me (and BS), i.e., naturally more fitted to be moving pianos than playing them.

[lynn cates]

not a definitely ascertained fact

Hello Jon.

"Was Schwartz affiliated with this club?"

That is what a few of us are trying to ascertain.

Cheers.
LC

[Stewart P Evans]

Opposite side of the road...

Hi Wickerman. Logic, but not solid evidence, suggests Schwartz was familiar with the Berner Street club. Also, Swanson's report does not specifically state that Pipeman was on the board school side. Due to Swanson's rather rushed writing, it's ambiguous. But it's important to note that the Star and Swanson do not comflict on many points.
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Tom Wescott

Swanson's report does specifically state that the man lighting his pipe was on the opposite side of the road to 'the man who threw the woman down'. This was thrashed out on JTRForums and is backed by Abberline's later report. I do not intend to get into another lengthy debate about semantics. The Star and Swanson do conflict on several points.

[Stewart P Evans]

Specific Suspect

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Stewart either considers me a lost cause or just prefers to avoid exchange with me whenever possible. However, my use of 'memo' didn't feel right even as I wrote it, and they're certainly not 'reports'. I probably should have said Abberline's replies or responses.
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Tom Wescott

Those who opt for a specific suspect that then becomes an idee fixe tend to become lost causes. You certainly used to be a lot more logical and exhibited more common sense before.

They certainly are reports that Abberline wrote, or are you telling me, a 62-year-old ex-police officer with nearly 30 years police service, what a police report is? Those with pet theories really do become tiresome at times.

[Stewart P Evans]

Differences

The Star report is at odds with the details of Schwartz's story in the reports by Swanson and Abberline on several significant points.

In the Star report the man 'pushed Stride back into the passage' as opposed to 'trying to pull her into the street, turning her round and throwing her down on the footway'.

The Star has the second man 'coming out of the doorway of the public-house' as opposed to ' standing lighting his pipe...on the opposite side of the road'.

In the Star report the second man 'shouted out some sort of warning' to the attacker of Stride as opposed to 'the man who threw the woman down' calling out 'Lipski' 'apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road'.

The Star report has the second man 'rushing forward as if to attack' Schwartz with 'a knife in his hand', not a pipe.

In my view these differences are pretty significant.

[mariab]

Thank you so much for listing the discrepances between the Star and the Swanson report systematically for all to see, Mr. Evans. It's very helpful.

I apologize again most profusely for my silly mistake of calling a “police report“ a “memo“ and a “witness statement“ a “police report“, and I assure you it was not meant at all as disrespect to your formidable investigative and research experience, Mr. Evans, and I'm sure it's the same for Tom. Sometimes mistakes are a necessary evil in the learn process. At least I can attest that the lessons learned from my own mistakes and the embarrassing situations I put myself in were the most valuable and durable life lessons.

Those who opt for a specific suspect that then becomes an idee fixe tend to become lost causes.

I can attest that Tom's not that far gone yet.

a very strong case can be made against Le Grand in the murder of Stride, and a shockingly decent case against him as the Ripper, but the former is greater than the latter, so I hold to the very real possibility that he killed only Stride. In any event, I’m perfectly capable of separating one from the other and discussing with an open, bias-free mind.

I have a feeling that I (and perhaps Lynn Cates a tiny bit, but not really) have contributed much more than Tom to a certain frenzy on the boards, by perhaps too insistingly discussing our mutual ongoing research and enthusiasm. But research is a pretty addictive activity, especially to neophytes. And there is at least one very recent finding (during Easter week) which constitutes solid evidence, and a few promising but still inconclusive “finds“(?) from Paris, which I can't wait to research further.

[Stewart P Evans]

Tendency

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I can attest that Tom's not that far gone yet.
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I was merely pointing out a tendency.

'Red Demon' and I go back a long way and I have a lot of respect for the work he has done, and is doing. However, he has displayed an increasing fixation on 'Le Grand' that, I feel, sometimes clouds his judgement. But I don't wish to put him off (not that I could) and he is pursuing valid research.

[Chris]

Regarding Schwartz, what made me first think he might be affiliated with the club is that he lived on Berner Street until the day of the murder, and the club is the only place I'm aware of that took in young, immigrant Jews.

I don't think there's any reason to suppose Schwartz and his wife would have been living in some kind of institution, rather than just renting property like all the other immigrant Jews in the area. As far as I know the address they moved to in Ellen Street was just an ordinary house.

[mariab]

I was merely pointing out a tendency.
'Red Demon' and I go back a long way and I have a lot of respect for the work he has done, and is doing. However, he has displayed an increasing fixation on 'Le Grand' that, I feel, sometimes clouds his judgement. But I don't wish to put him off (not that I could) and he is pursuing valid research.

I understand. What personally puzzles me is that Le Grand seems to have been involved with a host of different activities, even with the Parnell saga! It's very hard not to want to research all this. In the end I'll start seing this guy in my sleep. (Le Grand, probably not “Red Demon“!) It's an undeniable fact that my real (currently primeraly editorial, thus a bit boring) work has started suffering, since research is much more “light on one's feet“ as work and more exciting.

I don't think there's any reason to suppose Schwartz and his wife would have been living in some kind of institution, rather than just renting property like all the other immigrant Jews in the area. As far as I know the address they moved to in Ellen Street was just an ordinary house.

It appears that the IWEC helped newly arrived Jewish immigrants by providing temporary shelter – in the interest of recruiting them for manual jobs and, later, potentially as members. Schwartz stated that he lived on Berner Street before moving to a house on Ellen Street. Lynn Cates has been patiently going through 4.000 pages of sweaters' materials provided by Debra Arif, but so far I think that they don't contain any workers' lists. Am I right, Lynn?

[Chris]

It appears that the IWEC helped newly arrived Jewish immigrants by providing temporary shelter – in the interest of recruiting them for manual jobs and, later, potentially as members. Schwartz stated that he lived on Berner Street before moving to a house on Ellen Street.

My point is that Berner Street was full of Jewish immigrants, so the fact that Schwartz was a Jewish immigrant living in Berner Street is really no reason to suppose he was living at the Club. If he had been, I think it would be amazing if the police and newspaper reports hadn't mentioned it.

[mariab]

My point is that Berner Street was full of Jewish immigrants, so the fact that Schwartz was a Jewish immigrant living in Berner Street is really no reason to suppose he was living at the Club. If he had been, I think it would be amazing if the police and newspaper reports hadn't mentioned it.

Well, the Echo mentioned Schwartz anonymously as a member of the IWEC, while William Wess pretended not to know Schwartz' name in this specific newspaper report. Newspaper coverage on Schwartz was very limited.

I'm researching a Schwartz Polish/Hungarian anarchist orator connected to William Wess in 1902-1905 in French spy reports about Whitechapel anarchist activity. The remaining 8 boxes of these materials in the Paris Archives Nationales contain files of anarchists under supervision, listed alphabetically. I've stopped at letter "C“ last time I was in Paris. I'm extremely curious about letters “K“ and “R“ (for Krantz/Rombro), “S“, and “W“. (I do hope that the 8 last boxes to go through DO continue with files of anarchists listed alphabetically. These are uncatalogued materials, so the inventaries aren't specific.)

I've followed up some of your censuses/naturalization finds pertaining to Schwartz, but I'm waiting to finish with the French materials first.

[Chris]

Well, the Echo mentioned Schwartz anonymously as a member of the IWEC, while William Wess pretended not to know Schwartz' name in this specific newspaper report. Newspaper coverage on Schwartz was very limited.

Surely, according to the Echo report, the man whose name the secretary said he couldn't remember was not a member of the Club:
"The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

[mariab]

Surely, according to the Echo report, the man whose name the secretary said he couldn't remember was not a member of the Club:
The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.

Stupid mistake of mine, and many apologies. I actually KNEW this important detail, but I'm currently very tired and about to go to sleep (after working on polishing a long manuscript), with an eye leaking tears. (Not that any of this is a valiant enough excuse.)
Technically Schwartz would have been too new and unimportant to have (yet?) been a full-fledged member of the IWEC in 1888.
It appears suspicious to me that Wess chose to give the Echo an interview while pretending to ignore the name of the witness, as if he was covering for him, while at the same time directing the information leaking to the press. How the mistake of Schwartz supposedly having chased Pipeman came to be, I don't know. It reminds me a bit of the alleged knife in Pipeman's hands in the Star report, both as a possible augmentaion of “heroics“ supposedly displayed by Schwartz.

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Maria.

"but so far I think that they don't contain any workers' lists. Am I right, Lynn?"

Right, only isolated individuals.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Isolated individuals doing what, Lynn, if I might inquire?
Lynn, thank you SO much for your dedication and patience in going through such a thick bunch of materials!