The Murder of Elizabeth Stride

[c.d.]

Hello Abby,

Well here is the problem. The more we describe what happened as an attack the more inconsistencies we come up with. If it was a vicious attack, Liz's reaction seems a bit strange. You would think that she would scream bloody murder and appeal to Schwartz and the Pipe Man man for help. Yet all we have is three small screams which could simply be indicative of surprise more than fear. The BS man is so incredibly angry that he does not care that he has been seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man and follows through with Liz's murder. If this is true, did Liz not pick up on it? Did she not realize how much danger she was in? That seems very strange and again you would think she would scream loudly and for help.

With regard to the cachous, if it was a vicious attack, how did they survive Liz roughly being thrown to the ground as they were simply wrapped in tissue paper? And if she is being dragged after being thrown to the ground, they have to survive that as well. Surely Liz must have known she was now fighting for her life at that point. Now nobody in the club heard any screams and if the BS man had his hand over her mouth she would need to get that hand away so she could scream. Trying to pull that hand away or trying to push herself would require an open hand not a fist and you would expect the cachous to be scattered as a result.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

Well here is the problem. The more we describe what happened as an attack the more inconsistencies we come up with. If it was a vicious attack, Liz's reaction seems a bit strange. You would think that she would scream bloody murder and appeal to Schwartz and the Pipe Man man for help. Yet all we have is three small screams which could simply be indicative of surprise more than fear. The BS man is so incredibly angry that he does not care that he has been seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man and follows through with Liz's murder. If this is true, did Liz not pick up on it? Did she not realize how much danger she was in? That seems very strange and again you would think she would scream loudly and for help.

With regard to the cachous, if it was a vicious attack, how did they survive Liz roughly being thrown to the ground as they were simply wrapped in tissue paper? And if she is being dragged after being thrown to the ground, they have to survive that as well. Surely Liz must have known she was now fighting for her life at that point. Now nobody in the club heard any screams and if the BS man had his hand over her mouth she would need to get that hand away so she could scream. Trying to pull that hand away or trying to push herself would require an open hand not a fist and you would expect the cachous to be scattered as a result.

c.d.

Hi cd
Valid points all.

I guess I have to give you my full theory to respond so you know where i am coming from. I think it is more probable that IS testimony about what he saw between BS man and LS is true and accurate than not. Also, given the good number of people over a long period of time who saw LS and a man together that night-how do you reconcile the two. IS said he followed a man who then attacked LS. My best guess if both IS said was true and at least some of the witness's accounts are also true than what may have occured is that LS met BS man earlier that night. BS man is JtR. He wanted her in an alley way. She is reluctant, fearful of the ripper scare, perhaps looking at this new guy as a potential boyfriend. They play their little cat and mouse game over a period of time, walking around, him trying to seduce her into doing what he wants, buying her things, (caschous, flower etc.) she not wanting to go right into the alley. In front of Dutfields yard she refuses again-he gets frustrated and leaves, then quickly losing his temper turning back around (this is where IS arrives behind him) going back and assaults her. After scaring off IS he drags her into the yard and kills her, quickly leaving.

LS may have never felt she was being attacked by JtR, just a frustrated punter/horny guy. She was not screaming for bloody murder because she thought she was being attacked by JtR, she was yelling at him(a guy she liked) to stop and leave her alone. Also, I think there might be a good chance that IS witnessed BSman/JtR cut her throat in the street, but did not realize it in the quick motions and dark conditions, and just described as he did. With regards to the caschous my view is that she simply held on to them tightly through the attack.

I think this might be a case of JtR losing his temper and blowing his cool because he spent alot of time(and money?) on LS and she would not do as he expected and wanted.

[Chadwick]

Hello Abby,

Well here is the problem. The more we describe what happened as an attack the more inconsistencies we come up with. If it was a vicious attack, Liz's reaction seems a bit strange. You would think that she would scream bloody murder and appeal to Schwartz and the Pipe Man man for help. Yet all we have is three small screams which could simply be indicative of surprise more than fear. The BS man is so incredibly angry that he does not care that he has been seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man and follows through with Liz's murder. If this is true, did Liz not pick up on it? Did she not realize how much danger she was in? That seems very strange and again you would think she would scream loudly and for help.

With regard to the cachous, if it was a vicious attack, how did they survive Liz roughly being thrown to the ground as they were simply wrapped in tissue paper? And if she is being dragged after being thrown to the ground, they have to survive that as well. Surely Liz must have known she was now fighting for her life at that point. Now nobody in the club heard any screams and if the BS man had his hand over her mouth she would need to get that hand away so she could scream. Trying to pull that hand away or trying to push herself would require an open hand not a fist and you would expect the cachous to be scattered as a result.

c.d.

Well, c.d., I was checking on the testimony, having read this thread with great interest and found that Dr. Phillips talks about the cachous issue.

"The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter. I took them from the hand and gave them to Dr. Blackwell."

Given the great discussion over the matter, this shows that perhaps the violent action taken earlier caused Liz to lose some of her breath mints.

As to the brusing and Phillips' comments regarding that, I have theory. What's known as postmortem bruising or bruising caused at or around the time of death, not visible at the time of death, but shows up around 24 hours after death. Dr. Phillips makes his comments about the body, which have had some controversy here.

"We removed the clothes. We found the body fairly nourished. Over both shoulders, especially the right, from the front aspect under colar bones and in front of chest there is a bluish discolouration which I have watched and seen on two occasions since."

When looked at in context, it would seem that Phillips is referring to observing postmortem bruising "since" in other cadavers.

As to the dragging idea, no one remarks on mud being on her clothing nor scuffing of the backs of her shoes, which would have been indications of her being dragged into the yard. Rather, Phillps notes that mud has been splattered on her face, caked in her hair and left side of her head.

She bled out slowly, Phillips says. Exsanguination was the cause of death. This could explain why her knees are drawn up, indications that she was agonizingly dying.

Just thoughts, respectfully submitted.

Best to you.

Chadwick

[lynn cates]

exploration

Hello Abby. Let's explore.

"BS man is JtR."

As you wish. I have no doubt but that IS and the lads at the IWMEC wished the BS story to imply 1. BS man killed Liz. 2. BS man was NOT Jewish.

"He wanted her in an alley way."

No harm here. Of course, neither Polly nor Annie were in an alley way, but I waive all that.

"She is reluctant, fearful of the ripper scare"

What ripper scare? There was no JTR and the Leather Apron business was winding down. All clear for 3 weeks.

". . . perhaps looking at this new guy as a potential boyfriend."

But beginning when? At an earlier part of that night? Is that why she found someone to keep her velvet piece and another to keep her hymnal? Very well. Let's say she was invited on a date and sees a potential new boyfriend.

"They play their little cat and mouse game over a period of time, walking around, him trying to seduce her into doing what he wants, buying her things, (cachous, flower etc.) she not wanting to go right into the alley."

But this won't do. If Liz is soliciting, you make your client happy, collect the fee, and you're off for verse 2. But perhaps she is walking up and down the street, gazing into his eyes and comparing his sensitivity to the former lout, Michael. But then coyness seems inappropriate here also. Strike while the iron's hot.

"In front of Dutfields yard she refuses again-he gets frustrated and leaves . . ."

Indeed. But if Liz, who began the evening with 6d is doing all this to earn 4d, something is SERIOUSLY wrong with her economic sense.

" . . . then quickly losing his temper turning back around (this is where IS arrives behind him) going back and assaults her. After scaring off IS he drags her into the yard and kills her, quickly leaving."

Notice that, if BS wishes to mutilate someone, he is going to almost as much trouble as Liz is in trying to earn 4d. If he is seen on multiple occasions with Liz, he runs a great danger in being identified. But now, he IS identified--if we accept the Schwartz story. After all, aren't there other women about who can be ripped?

On the other hand, if IS is lying . . .

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

Well, c.d., I was checking on the testimony, having read this thread with great interest and found that Dr. Phillips talks about the cachous issue.

"The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter. I took them from the hand and gave them to Dr. Blackwell."

Given the great discussion over the matter, this shows that perhaps the violent action taken earlier caused Liz to lose some of her breath mints.

It was Blackwell who had disturbed and spilled the cashous before Phillips' arrival.

'Dr. Blackwell [recalled] (who assisted in making the post-mortem examination) said: I can confirm Dr. Phillips as to the appearances at the mortuary. I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand.'

[Tom_Wescott]

SPE's obstinence in the face of PJ's cold logic...

I have to agree with Pirate Jack. Stewart Evans refuses to accept any press reports at all as viable, that's why The Lodger, The Man Who Hunted JTR, Letters From Hell, and Scotland Yard Investigates are not at all packed to the brim with new and exciting discoveries from the contemporary press. If Mr. Evans wasn't so rigid in his bias perhaps he would for once have something of interest to offer and, who knows, maybe even earn something of a reputation in this field. A true shame.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael Kidney

He didn't kill Stride. There's no question about that. That book is shut. Who did? The weight of evidence points toward Charles "I paid people to lie to save my own butt" Le Grand, but that doesn't make him Jack the Ripper.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

I have to agree with Pirate Jack. Stewart Evans refuses to accept any press reports at all as viable, that's why The Lodger, The Man Who Hunted JTR, Letters From Hell, and Scotland Yard Investigates are not at all packed to the brim with new and exciting discoveries from the contemporary press. If Mr. Evans wasn't so rigid in his bias perhaps he would for once have something of interest to offer and, who knows, maybe even earn something of a reputation in this field. A true shame.

Someone should use this quote on a book cover. But maybe some newbies won't get the irony?

[Tom_Wescott]

Curious4 and the Phillips - George and Chris

I can see where C4 is coming with his idea that Phillips might have been comparing the bruising to cases from his past, based on the material C4 is using as his source. That's why it's so necessary to read ALL the papers who offered their own coverage of the inquests. Doing so, you will see that there's no question of what Dr. Phillips is saying - he noticed the bruising appear and get progressively more pronounced. this is Parimortem bruising, and it could only have occurred within a short time prior to death or even after death - possibly even when her body was picked up for moving inside the club. Most likely, it occurred prior to death. but a malnutritioned, middle-aged woman with fair skin would be extremely easy to bruise, so a client trying to get a grip might be all we see here. It's impossible to say.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Someone should use this quote on a book cover. But maybe some newbies won't get the irony?

Good point. I often forget that Casebook isn't as insular as it seems, and that literally hundreds of people read our posts without contributing. To any newbies out there, I was being sarcastic. Stewart Evans is a master of discovering, analyzing, and determining the relevance of contemporary press reports, as a read of any of his books will make obvious. Equally as engaging is Pirate Jack's debut work, Paul Begg's Arse: An Insider's View. However, I don't recommend the scratch and sniff edition.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

perimortem bruising

Most likely, it occurred prior to death. but a malnutritioned, middle-aged woman with fair skin would be extremely easy to bruise, so a client trying to get a grip might be all we see here. It's impossible to say.

I agree, as already discussed in my posts #76 and #77. Speaking from experience (with sports) I can't imagine bruising appearing earlier than 8-12 hours after the impact which caused it. For me it often requires up to 48 hours or several days for the bruising to turn up, but this refers to deep bruising, from crashes from high up to the ground. (Plus I'm neither malnutritioned nor –gasp!– middle aged.) Pressure bruises, like the ones Stride spotted on her shoulders, would have appeared quickly, most probably earlier than 12 hours after they were inflicted. It all depends on how many days she stayed at the morgue, but I'd rather tip for a previous john than BS as the “inflictor“.

Pertaining to another issue, I have to come forward and say that Paul Begg made a really nice and completely correct impression on me in his fascinating debate with SPE in the Kozminski identification questions thread, and that he requires no assistance from any pirates, one eyed or not.

PS.: Oh, and Curious is a she. Which will probably bring forward the accusation of my being “casebook's biographer“, whatever that means. ;-)

[Tom_Wescott]

It all depends on how many days she stayed at the morgue, but I'd rather tip for a previous john than BS as the “inflictor“.

I wouldn't be too sure. The Star report of Schwartz's evidence has BS Man grabbing Stride by the shoulders and turning her around. I've always found this an interesting details that perhaps points to Schwartz having told the truth - not only because there's bruising on her shoulders but NOT her arms, but also because it's not a detail that someone would make up. As for Curious4 being a she, I remain unconvinced. And there's nothing wrong with you being Casebook's biographer. Your memory for such details shows that you're a people person who cares about those she associates with, even if only through the internet.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[niko]

Hopefully we will someday find out who is right!

We all may yet be right!

If "Jack" only killed 3 (maybe more if we include Mckenzie); Kidney 1; Barnett or Fleming 1; another name or names for the torsos and Pinchen St...

Phil

Hello Phil, just for curiosity, what makes you mention that "Jack" only killed three ? Has any theory been written suggesting that Jack only killed three ?
All the best, Agur.

niko.

[mariab]

Tom, we don't know which part of Schwartz' story might be true, including his (or other IWEC members') perhaps having seen Stride with “Pipeman“ and his minions on September 30 or even previously, despite the IWEC and other neighbors denying of having seen Stride before on Berner Street.

Wow! It's the very first time in my life I've been called a “people person, caring about those she associates with“. I almost feel like I should run and enlist as a nurse, or a kindergarten teacher! Normally, my people call me a “misanthrope“. No, Tom, really, it's just attention to detail, until Alzheimer's hits. I happen to recall that Curious is a housewife or something from Sweden, simply for the same reason I insisted on finding out about the German Emperor('s clothes).

[c.d.]

I just don't see Jack (as the BS man) going through the motions of "dating" Liz. For one thing, if they spent any time together in public places, it makes him vulnerable to being identified by the police making inquiries afterwards. I also don't see Liz playing the coquette and playing hard to get. If it was supposed to ultimately be a business transaction why not get on with it? Time was money.

c.d.