Liz Stride Re-Enactment

[mariab]

Lynn,
I'll be very happy to look about the Okhrana at the Paris Archives Nationales and at the Police archives about them and Le Grand, but I have absolutely NO time to read any lit on the Okhrana presently, or to research the journalist Jules Hansen extensively. I can only look him up through a very good electronic search tool they have in Paris, and keep my eyes open if he's mentioned in any public fonds sources, but that's about it. You have all the books (Bill Fishman, Butterworth, Ben Fishman), and it would be valuable if you gave me names of Okhrana associates (preferably of criminal associates in the lowest chain of command) so that I can look them up in the criminal records. I've emailed you with more details about this.
I only have 4 days left until I get to Paris, a proposal on deadline, 2 operas I hardly know to get acquainted with before researching their materials in Paris, and a long list of (mostly unpleasant) errands to run tomorrow.
After December 10 things might get quieter, so I can catch up with my Ripperogical reading list...
Thank you.

[lynn cates]

thought experiment

Hello Garza. Permit one to grant, for the moment, that one can be strangled without any signs of strangulation. I would ask:

1. Why assume that Liz was strangled?

2. How long did this take? Are we to assume that her assailant choked her into unconsciousness? Would she not be, at some point, flailing her arms and throwing cachous about?

I suppose someone will argue that, "Liz was killed by "Jack" and he always strangled first." But I sincerely hope not.

Cheers.
LC

[Garza]

Hello Maria. No, no. I mean what is CAUSING her unconsciousness? There are absolutely no signs of strangulation.

Do people here realise that visible signs of stranguation only appear in 25% of strangulation victims? Even in the modern day, stranguation is sometimes overlooked.

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...03997/abstract

Theres a nice wee medical journal on it.

[lynn cates]

bingo

Hello Maria.

"I think Lynn considers the possibility that Stride was killed for provocatory anti-socialist/anti-anarchist/antisemitic purposes outside of the IWMC. I'm not convinced at all by that theory, but I'm willing to conduct a little research in Paris (when I get there) pertaining to the Okhrana criminal activities. It appears that they often recruited detective agencies to help with their disinformation campaign. Does this perhaps ring a bell?"

Bingo!

Hansen? No, but my curiosity is peaked. Do look into it.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Sir Charles

Hello CD.

"I am not clear on what you mean by an assassination."

Well, have a go at Sir Charles' memo of October 12 and you will catch my meaning. It is reprinted in Stewart Evans' "Ultimate Companion."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Dave. Thank you, sir!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

precisely

Hello Phil. Precisely!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

varia

Hello Maria.

"Her clenched hand IS a sign of strangulation. Obviously I don't mean fatal, elaborate strangulation with a rope, just a strong stranglehold, immobilizing her and preventing her from breathing until she fell to the ground."

Very well. If by strangulation you refer only to the tightening of the scarf about her throat, I can live with that. Of course that would cause her fists to clench.

"I'm so sorry, Lynn, but I'm not clear on what your scenario implies, besides your (historically correct) position pertaining to the wall."

It implies:

1. The sequence Blackwell endorsed was possible.

2. The cachous were retained.

3. The body position is consonant with the actual one.

4. The scarf has a tight knot and moved to the left.

5. Given the neck's position at the moment of the cut, no spray could reach the wall.

"Also, please consider that it's nearly impossible to recreate possible scenarios with the cachous WITHOUT really attempting to strangle or stranglehold somebody – which I don't particularly recommend!"

I'll say! Actually, I did not pull hard enough on the scarf and my wife's head was not properly abducted. My motivation was safety.

"In other words, your wife would have totally been able to throw the cachous to the other side of the room while you were “assaulting“ her. She was physically totally unrestrained to do that, if she wished."

Of course. So could Liz. But I daresay that the cachous were not foremost in Liz's mind since she had other concerns. But they did wind up grasped between her thumb and forefinger. I claim only that in some scenarios that could NOT happen-- in fact, it could not happen in ANY scenario that includes a protracted scuffle.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

By the by, I was just talking to a doctor and she absolutely refuted the possibility that a dying Stride with a severed carotid and a clinched left hand by death convulsions might have been able to move her right hand up to her throat. I don't know how Protohistorian would respond to this. Thus, the Wescott theory of contamination by the first person who examined her appears the most plausible. I know what Fisherman will say about this, but I believe that a shocked, distressed, inexperienced young doctor might have used poor form in his dealing with Stride's body. Unless it was someone from the IWMC who touched her first without saying.

[mariab]

Hi C.D.,
I think Lynn considers the possibility that Stride was killed for provocatory anti-socialist/anti-anarchist/antisemitic purposes outside of the IWMC. I'm not convinced at all by that theory, but I'm willing to conduct a little research in Paris (when I get there) pertaining to the Okhrana criminal activities. It appears that they often recruited detective agencies to help with their disinformation campaign. Does this perhaps ring a bell?
We're not trying to formulate another Royal conspiracy theory, but I thought it can't hurt if I had a look inside the records for Piotr Rachkovsky's activities in Paris and in the Paris criminal records for our pimp friend from the Strand.
By the by, Lynn, I've just read up that Rachkovsky befriended Danish journalist Jules Hansen during his first visit to Paris in 1884, who was a counsellor in the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I couldn't find anything online about Hansen. Have you heard of him, was he a pronounced conservative? I'm so sorry, Paris in the 1880s is not at all my field, my forte is up to the late 1830s. Still, I'm pretty aware of the massively rampant antisemitism after France lost the Franco-Prussian war. (Dreyfus affair, anyone?)

C.D. wrote:
That is why I never liked the idea of the BS man (who I believe did exist) as her killer. If he dragged her into the yard, I see her trying to push him off with an open hand as you described and the cachous falling out. The domestic scenario has even more red flags associated with it for me. Eliminate those two scenarios and you have Jack.
Unless she knew BS, and there was a brief reconciliation before he murdered her. (Agreeably, not the most plausible scenario.) Why don't you like the domestic scenario, C.D.? I don't either, but I'm interested in hearing your ideas. I tend to believe it was a Ripper slaying. But I have several suspicions about the manipulation of the investigation AFTER the murder.

[c.d.]

But now it is just obvious that it was an assassination. (Think like Sir Charles thought in his October 12th memo.)

Hi Lynn,

I am not clear on what you mean by an assassination.

c.d.

[c.d.]

[QUOTE=Phil Carter;153689]Hello all,

Re. Cachous.

As they were found still within the closed hand, in my view, there are one or two very clear things.

Nobody, I suggest, would try and hold on to a handful of cachous in the middle of a struggle, as the person would most likely need the fingers of the hand to use, either to grip, tear, scratch or push. Also to hold off. There is only one scenario I see for the cachous to remain in the clenched hand under a struggle, that is to punch the assailant.

Therefore, based on the amounts of usage available for an open hand vis a vis a closed one in the possibility of a struggle under confrontation, the open hand would give far more options. Therefore, in my opinion, there was no real struggle. At least not physical. (Possibly oral)

Hi Phil,

I agree completely. That is why I never liked the idea of the BS man (who I believe did exist) as her killer. If he dragged her into the yard, I see her trying to push him off with an open hand as you described and the cachous falling out. The domestic scenario has even more red flags associated with it for me. Eliminate those two scenarios and you have Jack.

c.d.

[mariab]

Thank you again, David. And I'll personally apologize to Corey for criticizing his assertion (of dead in about one minute) when he turns up. Stupidly I didn't think about asphyxiation, and even more stupidly, I didn't figure out that severed main nerves and arteries are immediately fatal to the heart.

[protohistorian]

No worries Maria. I had seen a very similar (or maybe the same) case on t.v. so I did not read it. With the state of medical understanding in 1888, Elizabeth was as good as dead as soon as the vegus, or even sympathetic trunk nerve was severed. At that point her time was determined by her blood oxygen content alone. It would not be a matter of bleeding out so much as the exhaustion of oxygen by cerebral tissue. Dave

[mariab]

Thank you so much, David. Would there be actually any way to save someone's life whose vagus nerve has been severed, if one acted very quickly? I think I've also heard of vagotomy, but I don't think that this practice exists anymore.
Did you look up the link I posted from the South African case? This young woman survived a severed throat from ear to ear (carotid was not cut, obviously) and evisceration, and she's fine today. (I just happen to know about this because I've been to Port Elizabeth, and it's a famous local legend over there.)