Liz Stride Re-Enactment

[lynn cates]

precisely

Hello Phil. Precisely!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Dave. Thank you, sir!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Sir Charles

Hello CD.

"I am not clear on what you mean by an assassination."

Well, have a go at Sir Charles' memo of October 12 and you will catch my meaning. It is reprinted in Stewart Evans' "Ultimate Companion."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

bingo

Hello Maria.

"I think Lynn considers the possibility that Stride was killed for provocatory anti-socialist/anti-anarchist/antisemitic purposes outside of the IWMC. I'm not convinced at all by that theory, but I'm willing to conduct a little research in Paris (when I get there) pertaining to the Okhrana criminal activities. It appears that they often recruited detective agencies to help with their disinformation campaign. Does this perhaps ring a bell?"

Bingo!

Hansen? No, but my curiosity is peaked. Do look into it.

Cheers.
LC

[Garza]

Hello Maria. No, no. I mean what is CAUSING her unconsciousness? There are absolutely no signs of strangulation.

Do people here realise that visible signs of stranguation only appear in 25% of strangulation victims? Even in the modern day, stranguation is sometimes overlooked.

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/jem/article/PIIS0736467901003997/abstract

Theres a nice wee medical journal on it.

[lynn cates]

thought experiment

Hello Garza. Permit one to grant, for the moment, that one can be strangled without any signs of strangulation. I would ask:

1. Why assume that Liz was strangled?

2. How long did this take? Are we to assume that her assailant choked her into unconsciousness? Would she not be, at some point, flailing her arms and throwing cachous about?

I suppose someone will argue that, "Liz was killed by "Jack" and he always strangled first." But I sincerely hope not.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn,
I'll be very happy to look about the Okhrana at the Paris Archives Nationales and at the Police archives about them and Le Grand, but I have absolutely NO time to read any lit on the Okhrana presently, or to research the journalist Jules Hansen extensively. I can only look him up through a very good electronic search tool they have in Paris, and keep my eyes open if he's mentioned in any public fonds sources, but that's about it. You have all the books (Bill Fishman, Butterworth, Ben Fishman), and it would be valuable if you gave me names of Okhrana associates (preferably of criminal associates in the lowest chain of command) so that I can look them up in the criminal records. I've emailed you with more details about this.
I only have 4 days left until I get to Paris, a proposal on deadline, 2 operas I hardly know to get acquainted with before researching their materials in Paris, and a long list of (mostly unpleasant) errands to run tomorrow.
After December 10 things might get quieter, so I can catch up with my Ripperogical reading list...
Thank you.

[Garza]

Hello Garza. Permit one to grant, for the moment, that one can be strangled without any signs of strangulation. I would ask:

1. Why assume that Liz was strangled?

She was unconsious when she hit the floor, or else she laid down voluntarily - which I'm sure you agree due to the wet muddy ground is very unlikely. Tom proposed she might have fainted, but a side affect of fainting is relaxed muscles, hence mints everywhere.

2. How long did this take? Are we to assume that her assailant choked her into unconsciousness? Would she not be, at some point, flailing her arms and throwing cachous about?

Strangulation to unconsiousness takes up to 30 secs. Liz Stride would be able to flail her arms if she was pinned against the club wall, chest on the wall.

Here is what I think happened, could be wrong of course, but let me draw my foot in the sand.

~ Liz and her killer inter the yard, she turns facing the wall away from her client to put a mint her in mouth, she closes up the packet of mints in her hand.

~ Out of nowhere, her killer takes her scarf in two hands and pushes her against the wall with his body, strangling her with the scarf. Her arms are either side of her, her arms can't move, except up and down, if that - as she is pinned against the wall on her chest. Her hands tighten, she can't escape.

~ As she slips into unconsciousness, the killer lowers her down with his left hand only, her bow slips to the left of her neck, he lowers her down until the only the head is lifted off the ground.

~ Standing over her and with the head lifted for eacier access, he cuts her neck, left to right. The reason why I think possibly the cut more was shallow was because the killer was standing up, not kneeling down when he done it.

~ Interestingly if he was standing up while he was doing, (assuming Jack killed Liz), maybe he wasn't planning to mutilate Liz at all and planned all along to kill 2 people that night. Serial killers often think of more daring acts as they go along, its a way from projecting power over police and society. But again, one can only assume this. Or else he was disturbed, but probably not by Mr. D - like so many think.

I suppose someone will argue that, "Liz was killed by "Jack" and he always strangled first." But I sincerely hope not.

I won't argue that.

[lynn cates]

sympathy

Hello Maria. I sympathise. Believe me, I know busy.

Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Garza,
I mostly agree with your scenario, especially with the Stride-not-having-fainted part and with the assailant-cutting-her-standing-up, hence-relatively-shallow-cut part. Why don't you believe the killer was disturbed by Diemshitz?

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
Hello Maria. I sympathise. Believe me, I know busy.
Thank you so much, Lynn, you're very kind and I know you know busy. The worst is, I hardly feel motivated nowadays, I don't even feel like going out, I wish I could go to sleep for a week. (But playing around on casebook I still feel like doing! Addicted, much?)

[lynn cates]

assumptions

Hello Garza.

"She was uncons[c]ious when she hit the [ground], or else she laid down voluntarily"

Why on earth assume this? It strikes me like a debate about whether her bonnet fell off or was pulled off.

"Liz and her killer [e]nter the yard, she turns facing the wall away from her client to put a mint in [her] mouth, she closes up the packet of mints in her hand."

Very well. Can you describe a natural sequence leading up to this? [And please don't say to perform oral sex for, with cachous in mouth, he would have yelped in pain--thus being heard over the strains of Tum Balalaika from within.]

"Out of nowhere, her killer takes her scarf in two hands and pushes her against the wall with his body . . ."

And there go the cachous!

". . . strangling her with the scarf. Her arms are either side of her, her arms can't move, except up and down, if that - as she is pinned against the wall on her chest. Her hands tighten, she can't escape."

And of course, her dress isn't torn or even rumpled in all this. Hmmm.

"As she slips into unconsciousness, the killer lowers her down with his left hand only, her bow slips to the left of her neck, he lowers her down until only the head is lifted off the ground."

Rather a slow motion variant of mine? Very well.

"Standing over her and with the head lifted for ea[s]ier access, he cuts her neck, left to right. The reason why I think possibly the cut more was shallow was because the killer was standing up, not kneeling down when he done it."

But while he is looking for easier access, why not kneel? After all, don't you believe that this is the same fellow who killed Polly and Annie?

"Interestingly if he was standing up while he was doing [this], (assuming Jack killed Liz), maybe he wasn't planning to mutilate Liz at all and planned all along to kill 2 people that night."

Why?

"Serial killers often think of more daring acts as they go along, its a way from projecting power over police and society. But again, one can only assume this."

Yes, an assumption. But why assume a serial killer? [Have you been reading "Dear Boss" or something of that sort?] Why not see a murder in your mind and then try to ascertain what lead up to it?

"Or else he was disturbed, but probably not by Mr. D - like so many think."

Indeed. With that open side door, there should be a good deal of traffic.

Bottom line: Liz showed NO signs of struggle. She looked "as if she had been laid gently down." But such signs of struggle would be required by your scenario.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

mind reader

Hello Maria. I think you just read my mind!

Cheers.
LC

[corey123]

Hello Maria,

No worries.

Garza,

I agree it is possible, and we can't throw out the possibility, whether Jack killed her or not, this doesn't truly affect any out comes does it? Adds perhaps a struggle and would most likely lead to the dropping of the cachous, but it is possible.

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Corey. You are right, the cachous would be flung about.

Cheers.
LC