Liz Stride Re-Enactment

[c.d.]

Hello (again) CD.

"I didn't see any sort of argument in the video. Was there a reason for that?"

Absolutely. Apart from IS's porky, I see no reason to assume an argument. There is absolutely NO corroboration for such.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

With no argument and no indication that Liz had been slapped around or stabbed anywhere else, we are pretty much forced to accept that her killer acted on the spur of the moment. Sort of zero to sixty in the anger department or perhaps a case of demonic possession. Now either he hid his seething rage from Liz or she was too naive to see it and went willingly with this man into a dark corner of the yard. Throw in the police report saying that they could not find anyone who might want to do such a thing and that is a scenario that I find very hard to accept.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

tagging

Hello Fish. Yes, possibly.

Thank God spray paint were not yet invented.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

review

Hello Monty.

"I don't think they were gazing eastward Lynn, something else was on the agenda."

Quite possibly. All I can say is, "Let's see your version." I shall be delighted to review it.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

ira--peccatum mortem

Hello CD.

"With no argument and no indication that Liz had been slapped around or stabbed anywhere else, we are pretty much forced to accept that her killer acted on the spur of the moment. Sort of zero to sixty in the anger department or perhaps a case of demonic possession. Now either he hid his seething rage from Liz or she was too naive to see it and went willingly with this man into a dark corner of the yard. Throw in the police report saying that they could not find anyone who might want to do such a thing and that is a scenario that I find very hard to accept."

Yes, CD, that is right. And I was bothered by that for a long time. Why would he get so angry so soon? Did she insult him?

But now it is just obvious that it was an assassination. (Think like Sir Charles thought in his October 12th memo.)

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Hello Monty.

"I don't think they were gazing eastward Lynn, something else was on the agenda."

Quite possibly. All I can say is, "Let's see your version." I shall be delighted to review it.

Cheers.
LC

Im merely pointing out that the conclusion Stride was exiting the yard when attacked, based on body position etc, is open to question.

Schwartz tallies with an attack starting in the street and possibly ceasing where Stride was found.

I cannot commit to any scenario really, neither can anyone else.

Monty

[lynn cates]

may the Schwartz be with you

Hello Monty. Yes, I am aware of the implications of Schwartz's story. If Schwartz is telling the truth (which I altogether doubt), then the fracas looks like a domestic affair. Indeed, my good friend Fish is banking on all this.

What I really would like to see is, not necessarily a commitment to a particular view, but rather a THOROUGH re-enactment of the main possible views. Then (as is fashionable with people in my curious profession) we could compare and contrast them.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

I completely agree with C.D. and Monty here. There are too many possible scenarios, and I believe it's impossible to commit to any of them. In fact, I'm even unable to decide if Schwartz's tale is (partly) true or a total fabrication, although I'm currently trying to help people research this (in all kinds of different directions). And I'm not saying at all that your reenactment of the murder is not plausible, Lynn. Especially your positioning yourselves pertaining to the wall appear to have been “historically correct“. The 2 problems I have with your video clip is 1) I couldn't see what exactly you were doing to her with the knife, as you had both your backs turned to the camera, and 2) I strongly assume that Stride's head was lifted from the ground, most probably by her scarf, when he finished her off.
Lynn Cates wrote:
Ummm, how does one cut her throat whilst lying on the ground, artery TOWARDS the ground?
Easy: By lifting it up, and the scarf she was wearing must have come pretty handy for this.
Sorry, Lynn, no garden hose or garden. I only have a (relatively spacious) balcony in Berlin, and I used to have cool, wild flowers (daisies, poppies, and hortensias) but in the last 2 years I've been travelling non stop, so “the well has gone dry“. But I have chestnut trees almost coming in from my windows, and this in downtown Berlin! (But in a very green neighborhood.)

[lynn cates]

por que

Hello Maria.

"I strongly assume that Stride's head was lifted from the ground, most probably by her scarf, when he finished her off."

Why on earth would he do that? How did she get on the ground? If there was a struggle getting on the ground, the cachous would be gone.

My scenario is just basically Dr. Blackwell's.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Sorry Lynn, no time to look up Dr. Blacknell's testimony right now.
In my humble opinion, Stride was unconscious before she got to the ground.

[corey123]

Lynn has a point here, if the death was not sudden, that would mean either of two things-

She would have dropped the cachous or;

They were planted there. However, why would a killer do this? Also, the hand was clenched so it seems natural.

This, along with blood being clotted on the back of her hand proves she was most likely conscious when she died.

[lynn cates]

conscious

Hello Maria. Why would she be unconscious?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

points

Hello Corey. You are making some good points there.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Corey, death is never completely sudden. It's a process, it takes several minutes at the shortest, and one invariably looses consciousness before one dies.
Apart from this, the term “blood clots“ used in October 1888 is not the same as the medical term of “blood clotting“ today, which is a whole different thing. In 1888 by “blood clots“ they simply meant coagulated blood (=blood dried out on her hand), so this has nothing whatsoever to do with Stride being conscious or not.
In my opinion, Stride's hand was clenched due to strangulation before she reached the ground. It very much looks like a blitz attack where she didn't even have time to react. (Plus, from what we know about her, she was not the type of woman to react so much.)

[corey123]

Corey, death is never completely sudden. It's a process, it takes several minutes at the shortest, and one invariably looses consciousness before one dies.
Apart from this, the term “blood clots“ used in October 1888 is not the same as the medical term of “blood clotting“ today, which is a whole different thing. In 1888 by “blood clots“ they simply meant coagulated blood (=blood dried out on her hand), so this has nothing whatsoever to do with Stride being conscious or not.
In my opinion, Stride's hand was clenched due to strangulation before she reached the ground. It very much looks like a blitz attack where she didn't even have time to react. (Plus, from what we know about her, she was not the type of woman to react so much.)

In truth Elizabeth Stride died in less than a minutes time, so yes, it was sudden.

I also think that the blood resulted from her attempting to alter the blood flow, but considering the sudden death, this led to awkward posture of the hand when she fell. Sort of a reflex if you will.

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
Why would she be unconscious?
Lynn, we've discussed this already in numerous Stride threads. She would be unconscious or around unconsciousness because she clenched her hand (with the cachous) instead of letting the cachous go and trying to free herself from her assailant's stranglehold.