A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello Abby.

"It was deemed of importance to her so she held it during the attack."

Perhaps. But can one actually do that? Try something like this at home (no violence or injuries, please). See what can be retained.

"or-It was lodged/ stuck in her hand."

Well, it seems to have been between her thumb and forefinger. A bit tenuously perched, or so it would seem.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

no confusion

Hello Abby.

"Do you really think I meant all 3 were involved-or are you joking again? "

Pretty much joking. The point being that, after 122 years, no serial killer has been found. So, no--no confusion. I knew what you meant.

Chapman (Klosowski) strikes me as little short of a fiend. If one chap in 1888 was a GENUINE sociopath, it was he. Just out of curiosity, why do you think he killed the C5, given you think he did?

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Abby N,

Sorry, wrong.

Regards,

Simon

[Rubyretro]

Perhaps. But can one actually do that? Try something like this at home (no violence or injuries, please). See what can be retained

.

“These were the actions of someone who had come to the premises to kill Sharon Birchwood, something which was achieved with ruthless efficiency.”
The jury heard Mrs Birchwood, who suffered from Myalgic Encephalopathy (ME), was overpowered so quickly that she was still clutching a postage stamp in her right hand.

Death of Nathan Romero:

Nathan was stabbed to death in the street and found with a Vietnamese medallion clutched in his hand

.

Murder or Joan Rosenthal, shot in the head

The keys were found in her hand according to Tiburon Police Chief, Michael Cronin.

Apparently it is known as 'the Death Grip' to hold tightly onto something in your hand as a reflex when being murdered.

The grip of something dead or dying.
I gently tore the bloodied piece of paper out from her death grip.

(wicktionary)

:

I agree with the person who suggested that she had the cachous out to sweeten the taste of a blowjob on an ill washed stranger.

[lynn cates]

swift and lethal

Hello Ruby. Thanks for posting these. I think they demonstrate that, if you are found dead, clutching something in your hand (or, as in Liz's case, pinched between thumb and forefinger), the attack was swift and lethal--no pas de deux intervening.

I am intrigued by your Liz & cachous observation. So, once again I ask, Was it before or after? If before, the assailant would experience severe pain, if after (which makes a good deal more sense), try reconstructing the sequence that led up to it. It just does not work.

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

Hello Ruby. Thanks for posting these. I think they demonstrate that, if you are found dead, clutching something in your hand (or, as in Liz's case, pinched between thumb and forefinger), the attack was swift and lethal--no pas de deux intervening.

I am intrigued by your Liz & cachous observation. So, once again I ask, Was it before or after? If before, the assailant would experience severe pain, if after (which makes a good deal more sense), try reconstructing the sequence that led up to it. It just does not work.

Cheers.
LC

already gave my (invented) reconstruction, before :

I think that Jack was a friend of/ attracted to the spot by anti-Jewish sentiment and the club meeting, as were some other 'thugs', looking for trouble.

Liz Stride was specifically soliciting outside the club for cutomers from the club members (lots of men on their own, in a happy frame of mind).

Two of the thugs come out of the pub, and one of them tries to drag Liz away from the yard and disuade her physically from soliciting there -another sees a jew( in the form of Israel Schwartz) arriving and shouts 'Lipski' and chases him.

(JtR may, or nor may not be one of them).

One, or both, of the men return to the pub and JtR bids 'goodnight', comes out, goes straight to Liz and offers her money for a 'blowjob' (this takes seconds) -he (or she) chooses a spot behind the gates, and the wall of the club, which can't be seen from the street or the windows.

She takes out her cachous, and her head is down and her hands occupied and within seconds Jack has his hand around her throat (she can't scream) and he's cut her windpipe. Liz dies with a 'death grip' on the cachous (it was all so fast). Diemschitz arrives and Jack slinks out. Either he turns back to his mates and a growing crowd (probable), or goes off quietly.

The thugs don't cause trouble -a murder is enough trouble, and they don't want to be blamed -especially after being spotted threatening Liz.

At any rate, Jack is secretly frustrated by the lack of time and privacy to mutilate Liz, and heads to Mitre Square, where there may be
another prostitute touting for Jewish club members -it's a place he knows.

Jack's mates either would never imagine that Jack was 'good old ********', and even if they suspected it, they would never say, because they can't believe it ..nor have any sympathy for the victims.

[Fisherman]

Rubyretro writes:

"Two of the thugs come out of the pub, and one of them tries to drag Liz away from the yard and disuade her physically from soliciting there -another sees a jew( in the form of Israel Schwartz) arriving and shouts 'Lipski' and chases him."

But this is not what Schwartz said, is it? He specifically stated that BS man walked down Berner Street from the north, until he came upon Liz.

And, speaking of Schwartz, here is the clip I spoke of earlier, that seems to corroborate our Hungarians story to at least some extent. It´s from "The Scotsman", October 2 1888.

"The club itself, which is next door to the large gate, was yesterday closed; but all the forenoon members and others who have special business there were admitted after knocking at the door. The committee of the institution held a meeting yesterday morning, at which the crime was talked over, and it was decided not to admit any stranger without the payment of a fee. This fee, the secretary explained, was to assist the propaganda. The committee, it seems, did not fix the amount to be charged, but, in reply to a question, the secretary said he thought 5s. would not be too much. In the course of conversation the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had, no doubt, been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen - or, at least, a man whom some persons regard as the murderer - being chased by another man along Fairclough Street which runs across Berner Street, close to the club, and which is interesected on the right by Providence Street, Brunswick Street, and Christian Street, and on the left by Batty Street and Grove Street, the two latter running up into Commercial Road. The pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

So, somebody was witnessed running along Fairclough Street at approximately a quarter to one o´clock, the exact time given by Schwartz for the incident at the yard gates. And the runner is being chased by somebody else. Understandably, the chased man is purported by The Scotsman to be the murderer, fleeing from the scene, and the chaser remains unidentified - but given the timing and the scene depicted, this would have been Schwartz pacing away, followed by Pipeman.
The route suggested by this would be Fairclough Street to the west, then Backchurch Lane southwards, past Ellen Street, until he reached the railway. It was stated that he fled towards his new lodgings, and they were situated in Backchurch Lane: "It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner Street to others in Backchurch Lane."

This, I believe, is the best piece of possible corroboration we have of Schwartz´story. Those who say that we should disregard Schwartz totally, may want to have a good look at the Scotsman article, I believe!

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

forensics

Hello Ruby. I appreciate the thought involved here. Let's go through this.

"I think that Jack was a friend of/ attracted to the spot by anti-Jewish sentiment and the club meeting, as were some other 'thugs', looking for trouble."

Very well. Something like this may have happened the next spring at the "riot." If I recall the story properly, some unruly kids tried to knock up the club members and then ran, a crowd gathered, blows were exchanged, etc.

So far, so good.

"Liz Stride was specifically soliciting outside the club for cu[s]tomers from the club members (lots of men on their own, in a happy frame of mind)."

Well, I'll let this one slide by. The Russian folk music, begun at the end of the meeting, may be evidence of happiness. Of course, most socialist/anarchist meetings were rather dreary affairs and sometimes involved a shouting match. I'm not sure how Liz would have known their state of mind, but I will waive this objection. Let's just say Liz saw men and potential profit.

"Two of the thugs come out of the pub . . ."

Which pub? When did the pub/s close? What was the time they came out? I don't mean to be nitpicky, but answers must be given here for a proper forensic reconstruction. But if the time is out, perhaps you could have them HANGING ABOUT the pub, inciting one another with a charged anti-semitic diatribe?

". . . one of them tries to drag Liz away from the yard and dis[s]uade her physically from soliciting there -another sees a [J]ew (in the form of Israel Schwartz) arriving and shouts 'Lipski' and chases him."

Why would the thug wish to dissuade Liz from soliciting? I think your best bet here is to claim fear of miscegenation.

Also, it does not seem to be pipe man (the other thug) shouting Lipski at IS, but rather BS man (the first thug) who does so (or he may be shouting at pipe man). Moreover, it is not clear that pipe man was actually chasing IS. But, let's proceed.

"(JtR may, or nor may not be one of them)."

Just as you wish.

"One, or both, of the men return to the pub and JtR bids 'goodnight', comes out, goes straight to Liz and offers her money for a 'blowjob' (this takes seconds)" -he (or she) chooses a spot behind the gates, and the wall of the club, which can't be seen from the street or the windows."

OK, whence JTR? If he were BS man, are we to suppose that, after the altercation, he is making nice? But if he is pipe man and he actually chased IS, then, does he return from the chase, shoo away BS, then make a proposition? Rather mixed signals--chivalry and sexual demands, almost simultaneously. But perhaps JTR was inside, passed the thugs as they came out, then cuts to your sequence. Is the pub still open at 12:45? But let's pass on.

"-he (or she) chooses a spot behind the gates, and the wall of the club, which can't be seen from the street or the windows."

Splendid. I believe it was Martin Fido who suggested that Liz knew the area between the gates and the wall to be a "hidey hole." Not sure how Liz would have known since this was not her neighbourhood; but, very well, let's keep going.

If she is leading JTR into the yard, this might be an excellent time to strike. Of course, if he had, her feet would have pointed the other direction.

So, she leads, he follows, she arrives at the opened gate next the building, pivots 180 degrees while Jack, following at her left stops just beyond her, realizes she has found her "niche" and pivots as well. Next, she reaches for the gate with her right hand, opens it towards the south 2-3 feet and insinuates herself. Jack follows. Liz turns facing roughly west and is now facing Jack whose face is pointed roughly east. She kneels, and fulfills her contract. So far, so good? (Feel free to emend or reinterpret here.)

"She takes out her cachous, and her head is down and her hands occupied. . ."

Indeed. And I presume she is still facing west, he east?

"and within seconds Jack has his hand around her throat (she can't scream) and he's cut her windpipe. Liz dies with a 'death grip' on the cachous (it was all so fast).'

This part is OK, but look at her ultimate body position. How is she pointed?

But perhaps Liz held the gate open for JTR with, "Here we are. In you go now." (Oops, poor choice of words? I referred to the spot just inside the gate.) Then she followed him? But now he is east of her and, again, this defies the ultimate body position.

Well, here it all is. I leave you to make of it what you will. Don't forget, we seek a natural sequence of events--no straining, if at all possible.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Liski

I always think the simplest explanation is the one to go with. The police seemed to think that JTR had an accomplice who did not taking part which is why they offered a free pardon to anyone else involved. The supposed JTR calls out "Lipski" to his companion, who is keeping watch, with the meaning "Watch out - one of "them" approaching." Pipe man gives chase and sees Schwartz off. JTR starts his work, gets cold feet as he realises he could be identified and doesn´t mutilate the body.

I`m all for conspiracy theories myself but getting involved in ideas about Schwartz being a consummate actor and so on is skating on very thin ice.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

Interesting Scotsman article. Thanks.

It reads as though the club secretary, Wess, witnessed the incident, hence his not being able to remember the name of the man who gave chase.

If so, how do we explain this exchange?

[Coroner] How do you know that you finally left [the club] at a quarter-past twelve o'clock?

[Wess] Because of the time when I reached my lodgings [at 2 William Street]. [my brackets]

Regards,

Simon

[c.d.]

Hi Maria,

I don't mean to keep putting you off. I simply don't know how to answer your question. It is certainly possible that the BS man and Liz knew each other and that their encounter was something like I witnessed. My own belief is that Schwartz was telling the truth as he saw it. Throw in numerous grains of salt though. I think the BS man was probably just drunk and decided to hassle a prostitute for some reason before cussing her out and going on his way. Hope that answers your question.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Hi Simon!

Yep, I know about that part - just as I know that Wess said nothing at all about meeting any people on his way home. He actually denied meeting anybody.

... reasonably meaning that Wess was not the man referred to by the Scotsman - or at least not the man who actually SAW the chase.

But if it was not Wess (who gave his position as "a printer" at the inquest), then who? Was the paper mistaken or misled? I could not say.

The possibility always remains that a member, X, saw the chase, and spoke to Wess about it, pointing out Pipeman as the chaser, a man that both X and Wess may have known by sight. After that, Wess may have related the story to the Scotsman, adding that he knew the chaser but could not name him. There are many possible explanations (and a few nigh on impossible, of course).

Whichever way, the article has very much of a bearing on the assessment of Schwartz´s testimony, I think!

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

the chase

Hello Simon and Fish. I say, what about Philip Krantz (Jacob Rombro)? He was working in the back office when all this was supposed to happen.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby....

There is no supporting evidence painting a picture of JTR the street attacker who can't hold his temper to prevent drawing attention to himself....no pattern.....only the account of a man who claims to have witnessed an attack....no one comes forward to corroborate his story....nor are the supposed assailant and by-stander tracked down....or come forward. And then we have a woman at the doorstep 2 doors down whose account is backed up by another person coming forward and she hears nothing of the kind.....and even if you think she isn't at the door at the time of the attack....well she hears a 'heavy measured tramp' and the cart fella......but no shouting in the streets around the same time as the 'heavy measured tramp'....

A local man would know all about that club.

And if you believe BS Man is the killer....you're conjuring up something along the lines of BS Man attacking her and Liz being prepared to go into the yard with him...still....even though she has been attacked....unlikely.....and to get round this problem there's the lover theory where she goes to sort out the problem in private......not that privacy was a concern two minutes earlier....and she goes with him because they're acquainted. And Fanny Mortimer is at the door just after 12.45 so if BS Man is the killer then she would see him come out. Now in my mind that is far more convoluted than some of the alternatives. Schwartz alone supports a man prepared to attack on the streets.

A more plausible solution in my mind.....is PC Smith passes and it is the man with the parcel who goes into the yard with her when PC Smith is out of the way....kills her at 12.40-12.45.....is disturbed by someone coming out or going into the club.....and goes past Mortimer's doorway with a 'heavy measured tramp....before Mortimer gets to the door. A very lucky JTR indeed. To me that is less problematic than the Schwartz fella's account.

Hi FM

And if you believe BS Man is the killer....you're conjuring up something along the lines of BS Man attacking her and Liz being prepared to go into the yard with him...still....even though she has been attacked...

Not at all. I would envision something more along the lines that after I.S. is scared off he pulls Stride into the yard(against her will, obviously) and murders her. And then bolts before mutilations because he is interupted by L.D.

A more plausible solution in my mind.....is PC Smith passes and it is the man with the parcel who goes into the yard with her when PC Smith is out of the way....kills her at 12.40-12.45.....is disturbed by someone coming out or going into the club.....and goes past Mortimer's doorway with a 'heavy measured tramp....before Mortimer gets to the door. A very lucky JTR indeed.

This is definitely possible scenario. But then why do you think I.S. fabricated his story?

[mariab]

Thank you , Fisherman, for posting the report of The Scotsman here! FINALLY a serious piece of evidence, and it realy corroborates that what Schwartz claimed actually happened – in which version whatsoever!

C.D., I agree, the possibility that BS was trying to get rid of Stride is a very faint one. I just thought about it influenced but the scene you described that you saw in DC.