A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM
Just walking up to someone and attacking her?
Yes, after spending alot of time and effort to get her into a dark corner and being unsuccessful and then losing his temper.


Doesn't help that Schwartz alone saw this attack at a time when there were other people milling about.....and you have a situation where someone is shouting 'Lipski' right outside a club full of Jews.....talk about bringing attention to yourself.....doesn't sound like JTR.

As I said, he "loses" it with stride and attacks her out of frustration, which is compounded by being seen by someone. When he sees I. S. witnesses his attack on stride he yells a racial slur at him (as I.S. is very jewish looking) to scare him off. Also, perhaps he does not know or care the club is jewish.

Hello Abby....

There is no supporting evidence painting a picture of JTR the street attacker who can't hold his temper to prevent drawing attention to himself....no pattern.....only the account of a man who claims to have witnessed an attack....no one comes forward to corroborate his story....nor are the supposed assailant and by-stander tracked down....or come forward. And then we have a woman at the doorstep 2 doors down whose account is backed up by another person coming forward and she hears nothing of the kind.....and even if you think she isn't at the door at the time of the attack....well she hears a 'heavy measured tramp' and the cart fella......but no shouting in the streets around the same time as the 'heavy measured tramp'....

A local man would know all about that club.

And if you believe BS Man is the killer....you're conjuring up something along the lines of BS Man attacking her and Liz being prepared to go into the yard with him...still....even though she has been attacked....unlikely.....and to get round this problem there's the lover theory where she goes to sort out the problem in private......not that privacy was a concern two minutes earlier....and she goes with him because they're acquainted. And Fanny Mortimer is at the door just after 12.45 so if BS Man is the killer then she would see him come out. Now in my mind that is far more convoluted than some of the alternatives. Schwartz alone supports a man prepared to attack on the streets.

A more plausible solution in my mind.....is PC Smith passes and it is the man with the parcel who goes into the yard with her when PC Smith is out of the way....kills her at 12.40-12.45.....is disturbed by someone coming out or going into the club.....and goes past Mortimer's doorway with a 'heavy measured tramp....before Mortimer gets to the door. A very lucky JTR indeed. To me that is less problematic than the Schwartz fella's account.

[mariab]

C.D. wrote:
Well we have certainly beaten our share of dead horses.
Yes, this thread is very much going on in circles.
C.D., can I ask again for your opinion on the (faint) possibility of the BS abuse on Stride having been something “innocent“, like the scene you witnessed on the street in DC? Such as Stride having insistently asked BS for money (as she frequently did, and to a lot of people), and him simply pushing her away to get rid of her?

Lynn Cates wrote:
By the way, how do we know that the Stride murder was botched? What if it were a simple throat cutting?
Lynn, there is an old article by Don Souden methodically analysing the forensics of Stride's injuries (with diagrams by Jane Coram) which has managed to convince me that we're dealing with a Ripper slaying here. If you wish to, I can send the article to you per email. (I don't think that Don would mind, and I can ask him beforehand.) But why oh why do I doubt that it would manage to make you change your mind?

WHY on earth are so many people insisting on assuming that Stride was “reluctant“ on the night of sept. 30th? There is no reason whatsoever to assume this! You're all being so “Victorian“ about Stride !

[lynn cates]

man with parcel

Hello Mac.

"A more plausible solution in my mind.....is PC Smith passes and it is the man with the parcel who goes into the yard with her when PC Smith is out of the way....kills her at 12.40-12.45.....is disturbed by someone coming out or going into the club.....and goes past Mortimer's doorway with a 'heavy measured tramp....before Mortimer gets to the door. A very lucky JTR indeed. To me that is less problematic than the Schwartz fella's account.'

Well, not bad. Of course, we need a plausible account of that parcel. I believe it was Tom Wescott who measured his copy of the Arbeter Fraint, and it is the same size as the chap's parcel. (My copy is an off print and so does not count.)

Next, look at the pencil sketches of Diemshitz and Eagle. Now, read the description given by PC Smith. Well?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

article

Hello Maria. Thanks. But I may have already read that article.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

witnesses' descriptions

Lynn Cates wrote:
Next, look at the pencil sketches of Diemshitz and Eagle. Now, read the description given by PC Smith. Well?
Oh come on, Lynn? What on earth are you suggesting? That Diemshitz or Eagle murdered Stride??!! If you want to know, the description also fits Barnett – like a glove.
No problem about Don Souden's article.
By the way, since Pipeman's description happens to fit Le Grand, it'd be of benefit to wait until the ongoing research on Le Grand is completed (which will take a couple of years, in the most optimistic estimation). At any rate, I can only insist that we just CAN'T dispense with Schwartz's testimony, regardless of how unconvincing it appears.

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Maria.

"Oh come on, Lynn? What on earth are you suggesting? That Diemshitz or Eagle murdered Stride??!"

Certainly not. As I've stated, PC Smith's chap had NOTHING to do with the killing--except, perhaps, inadvertently showing Liz where the side door was located.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn, I've been thinking about your “conspiracy theory“ of the International Working Men's Club having “hired“ Schwartz, and I'm willing to consider it as a possibility, IF you find any direct evidence. But, as I've said below, I find the fact that BS's description matches Le Grand of interest, and I'm looking forward to the results of another pending investigation.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Here's a question.

What is the one crucial detail in the Israel Schwartz story?

Regards,

Simon

[Observer]

Attacking someone in the street? Doesn't sound like JTR to me. Just walking up to someone and attacking her? Doesn't help that Schwartz alone saw this attack at a time when there were other people milling about.....and you have a situation where someone is shouting 'Lipski' right outside a club full of Jews.....talk about bringing attention to yourself.....doesn't sound like JTR.

I'd go with Stride being a JTR victim....no problem there.

But I'd also go with Schwart'z story being an invention...doesn't take too much of an imagination to suggest a tall tale aimed at placing the murder outside of the club....

It doesn't sound like JTR up until the Stride murder you mean. Nichols, and Chapman didn't give JTR any problems, it's clear they didn't suspect their impending doom. What we could have in Stride is the first signs of a prostitute resisting the Whitechapel murderer's advances, it's not impossible that JTR was capable of acting in the manner as witnessed by Schwartz. Indeed, it could well be that the reason he did not mutilate Stride was down to the fact that he had been seen assaulting her, and after silencing her decided that discretion was the better part of valour, and had it away on his foot.

I'd go along with Abbey Normal here


Regarding Schwartz, if his story is a fabrication what was the motive for his deception? Lynn Cates at least provides us with a motive, what's your take on the Schwartz deception? I realise that you do allude to some kind of motive namely

" a tall tale aimed at placing the murder outside of the club".

Why would he want to place the murder outside of the club ? Can you elaborate as I can't make head nor tail of this.

Observer

[lynn cates]

huh?

Hello Maria. Conspiracy? I shudder at the word.

Schwartz hired? Not necessarily. Do you hire a friend?

"I'm looking forward to the results of another pending investigation."

As we all should be. Investigation is good; research is good.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
Conspiracy? I shudder at the word.
If you are claiming that they went through the entire pains of engaging a fake witness, who described not one, but two fake suspects, then “conspiracy“ is the appropriate term.
Schwartz hired? Not necessarily. Do you hire a friend? Investigation is good; research is good.
OK, then I hope to hear about the results of your investigating Schwartz's private connections to club members. (Perhaps through the theaters he worked for, or through synagogue archives and whatnot?)

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby.

"I don't really place much emphasis on her still holding the cachous postmortem-there are many possibilities for this."

Good! Name one?

Cheers.
LC

It was deemed of importance to her so she held it during the attack.
or-It was lodged/ stuck in her hand.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby. The first was merely a grammar joke.

I asked for a serial killer, you gave 3 names. Do you really think all were involved in the WCM?

Well, at least we agree that Liz's murder may or may not have been botched. We also likely agree that the subsequent investigation DEFINITELY was botched.

Cheers.
LC

The first was merely a grammar joke.
Got it now-HaHa.

I asked for a serial killer, you gave 3 names. Do you really think all were involved in the WCM?

Do you really think I meant all 3 were involved-or are you joking again?
OK, whatever. You asked for a (one) serial killer-George Chapman. A known serial killer.
The others I added for other possibilities-sorry for the confusion.

[Abby Normal]

Hi All,

Here's a question.

What is the one crucial detail in the Israel Schwartz story?

Regards,

Simon

Lipski

[lynn cates]

post

Hello Maria. If I find anything, of course I shall post.

Cheers.
LC