A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[Fleetwood Mac]

I can definitely see how JtR might have blown his usual MO and lost his temper with a reluctant stride.

Attacking someone in the street? Doesn't sound like JTR to me. Just walking up to someone and attacking her? Doesn't help that Schwartz alone saw this attack at a time when there were other people milling about.....and you have a situation where someone is shouting 'Lipski' right outside a club full of Jews.....talk about bringing attention to yourself.....doesn't sound like JTR.

I'd go with Stride being a JTR victim....no problem there.

But I'd also go with Schwart'z story being an invention...doesn't take too much of an imagination to suggest a tall tale aimed at placing the murder outside of the club....

[mariab]

I agree with you here, Abby! Although I don't so much subscribe to the theory of a “reluctant“ Stride. The fact that Stride still clenched the cachous in her hand postmortem proves that initially it was a relaxed situation, and that the attack surprised her.

[lynn cates]

Hello Caz. Of course I can't rule your scenario out--not even if I fully understood it. But I would wonder:

1. How is the bloke saving money by buying a flower rather than just throwing down 4d?

2. Is this the "simpler" version?

3. Much seems to depend on fear on the street over Leather Apron. But isn't this 3 weeks later?

4. Why are we sure it was "Jack" at Mitre square?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

To Fledwood Mac:
I agree fully that Schwartz's story, which he even changed, is a tall tale and VERY problematic. But I'm afraid we CAN'T simply take it out of the investigation, without further evidence.

[lynn cates]

agreement

Hello CD.

"But your scenario has a couple of problems that I see. One, why didn't she scream much louder and appeal to Schwartz and the Pipe Man for help? Surely, in your scenario she has to realize she is in serious danger at that point.

Two, well its those damn cachous again. They would have to remain unbroken after being thrown to the ground and most likely dragged to where she was killed. Seems unlikely."

Well, first you agreed with Fish, now I agree with you. Should you gaze towards the East for signs of the Second Coming, or should I?

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Attacking someone in the street? Doesn't sound like JTR to me. Just walking up to someone and attacking her? Doesn't help that Schwartz alone saw this attack at a time when there were other people milling about.....and you have a situation where someone is shouting 'Lipski' right outside a club full of Jews.....talk about bringing attention to yourself.....doesn't sound like JTR.

I'd go with Stride being a JTR victim....no problem there.

But I'd also go with Schwart'z story being an invention...doesn't take too much of an imagination to suggest a tall tale aimed at placing the murder outside of the club....

Hi FM
Just walking up to someone and attacking her?
Yes, after spending alot of time and effort to get her into a dark corner and being unsuccessful and then losing his temper.


Doesn't help that Schwartz alone saw this attack at a time when there were other people milling about.....and you have a situation where someone is shouting 'Lipski' right outside a club full of Jews.....talk about bringing attention to yourself.....doesn't sound like JTR.

As I said, he "loses" it with stride and attacks her out of frustration, which is compounded by being seen by someone. When he sees I. S. witnesses his attack on stride he yells a racial slur at him (as I.S. is very jewish looking) to scare him off. Also, perhaps he does not know or care the club is jewish.

[lynn cates]

this/that

Hello Abby.

"I can definitely see how JtR might have blown his usual MO and lost his temper with a reluctant stride."

Why did his stride become reluctant when he lost his temper? Many lose their temper and stride boldly. (Sorry, couldn't resist!)

"I don't understand this need for complex and highly improbable conspiracy theories. Anarchists, police spies, cover ups etc.- All you need is one serial killer."

A serial killer? OK. Got one?

By the way, how do we know that the Stride murder was botched? What if it were a simple throat cutting?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Well we have certainly beaten our share of dead horses. Maybe that's all the four horsemen of the Apocolypse were waiting for...a good ride.


c.d.

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Maria.

"I agree fully that Schwartz's story, which he even changed, is a tall tale and VERY problematic. But I'm afraid we CAN'T simply take it out of the investigation, without further evidence."

I think that's right. What you CAN do, however, is allow the logic to branch--see what happens in each branch, with and without Schwartz.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

blenders

Hello CD. Right. A prof once told me, "It's OK to beat a dead horse; not OK to stick him in the blender."

Drinks, anyone?

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

I agree with you here, Abby! Although I don't so much subscribe to the theory of a “reluctant“ Stride. The fact that Stride still clenched the cachous in her hand postmortem proves that initially it was a relaxed situation, and that the attack surprised her.

Hi
It could have been a relaxed situation-up until the point when JtR lost his temper and in a short time turned from charming stranger to pissed off JtR.

I don't really place much emphasis on her still holding the cachous postmortem-there are many possibilities for this, none of which exclude a sudden attack or a fight/dispute befor an attack.

[lynn cates]

possibilities

Hello Abby.

"I don't really place much emphasis on her still holding the cachous postmortem-there are many possibilities for this."

Good! Name one?

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby.

"I can definitely see how JtR might have blown his usual MO and lost his temper with a reluctant stride."

Why did his stride become reluctant when he lost his temper? Many lose their temper and stride boldly. (Sorry, couldn't resist!)

"I don't understand this need for complex and highly improbable conspiracy theories. Anarchists, police spies, cover ups etc.- All you need is one serial killer."

A serial killer? OK. Got one?

By the way, how do we know that the Stride murder was botched? What if it were a simple throat cutting?

Cheers.
LC

Hi LC

Why did his stride become reluctant when he lost his temper? Many lose their temper and stride boldly. (Sorry, couldn't resist!)

He lost his temper because (after )she was reluctant to go immediately to a dark alley.

A serial killer? OK. Got one?

Sure. Jack the Ripper.
Or if you need a name-George Chapman. or a known killer-william bury or James Kelly.


By the way, how do we know that the Stride murder was botched? What if it were a simple throat cutting?

Just guessing. It might have been but IMHO its not.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Maria.

"I agree fully that Schwartz's story, which he even changed, is a tall tale and VERY problematic. But I'm afraid we CAN'T simply take it out of the investigation, without further evidence."

I think that's right. What you CAN do, however, is allow the logic to branch--see what happens in each branch, with and without Schwartz.

Cheers.
LC

I think that's right. What you CAN do, however, is allow the logic to branch--see what happens in each branch, with and without Schwartz.

Agree. With schwartz (telling the truth) its JtR losing his cool. Without him its JtR not losing his cool-just being interupted by L.D.

[lynn cates]

grammar et alii

Hello Abby. The first was merely a grammar joke.

I asked for a serial killer, you gave 3 names. Do you really think all were involved in the WCM?

Well, at least we agree that Liz's murder may or may not have been botched. We also likely agree that the subsequent investigation DEFINITELY was botched.

Cheers.
LC