Did jack kill liz stride?

[Jon Guy]

Not quite. She was "lain gently down", body oriented on a roughly east-west axis. Her head towards the club, her feet towards Berner.

Cheers.
LC

.. and which way was she facing when she was laid down, Lynn ?

[lynn cates]

tambien

Hello Jon. Thanks.

The same. Unless you refer to her face being turned left. But that is not what I mean.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Now extrapolate to Liz. If she were face down and arms pointed west, then OF course she would be retreating FROM Berner and her assailant. But she didn't; so, she wasn't.

Many different directions to retreat. A person might simply withdraw, stepping backwards. A person may run. A person may not understand what's going on and just stand until moved by another. A person may think something is a game when it isn't. Someone pushing someone down may be actually someone trying to stop someone from gong down, but failing in the attempt. Need I go on? You base your opinion upon a particular idea that some of us believe Stride was assaulted outside the gate and if that were true, she would run away. I don't know that she was assaulted outside the gate. I don't know if it was an actual assault. But...by her dying inside the gate, this must have been a date gone awry, for she trusted the man, and wasn't she going to sweeten her breath a bit for that long kiss? There is no way of knowing what happened exactly. You put together details in order to form some logical, neat little story, only it isn't neat. Many possibilities are equally viable. Since that is definitely the case, we are left with a complete vagueness about what actually transpired from the time Schwartz saw BS, Pipeman, and Stride (if he is to be believed), and until Diemschitz came upon a lump in the dark that he had to do a double-take for in order to see it was a woman (if he is to be believed), what we are left with is this: It is more likely a Ripper murder than not. The few facts we have are a dead woman, a deep throat wound that killed her (very hurriedly) on the left side of her neck, a similar weapon being used, and a time (August - October) when no other prostitutes were killed by throat-slitting on a street in the wee hours aside from Tabram (debatable) Nichols and Chapman.

I admire the cases you lay out, and they may be true, but more likely they are not because there are too many scenarios to make the chances good.

Mike

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

The same. Unless you refer to her face being turned left. But that is not what I mean.

Cheers.
LC

I refer to her dying facing north, the club wall.

In the fracas leading up to her death have you not considered that the killer manoeuvered her about. Which coincidentally Schwartz describes.

[lynn cates]

"No good sayin' it ain't."

Hello Michael. Thanks.

"Many different directions to retreat. A person might simply withdraw, stepping backwards."

Don't mean to offend, but this reminds one of Lestrade's trying to account for "Brunton's" footsteps going up to the wall then stopping.

"I'll put it to you like this Mr. 'Olmes. Brunton killed Musgrave against the wall. Then he threw him over his shoulder like this. Then he walked backward with his shoes in the prints."

But we all recall how THAT ended. Dennis Hoey tripped over the ottoman.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

pushed about

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Yes, her face was turned left from the axis of her body. But I was not referring to that.

"In the fracas leading up to her death have you not considered that the killer manoeuvered her about?"

In what way? I suppose he could give her nudges backward. Of course, IF the cachous were out, they'd be gone. Conversely, IF they were NOT out, it would be a devil of a time so to do.

"Which coincidentally Schwartz describes."

Schwartz describes what happened BEFORE she fell. Afterward, he describes only her "non-loud screams." And, as you recall, he is pulling her EAST, NOT shoving her WEST.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

But we all recall how THAT ended. Dennis Hoey tripped over the ottoman.

Tripping? Yes another possibility. See, you come up with real logic when you don't try too hard. Keep it up.

Mike

[lynn cates]

disengagement

Hello Michael. Thanks.

"Keep it up."

What? Disengage my mind? Thank you, no.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

In what way? I suppose he could give her nudges backward. Of course, IF the cachous were out, they'd be gone. Conversely, IF they were NOT out, it would be a devil of a time so to do.

If the cachous were out .... :-)

...

Schwartz describes what happened BEFORE she fell. Afterward, he describes only her "non-loud screams." And, as you recall, he is pulling her EAST, NOT shoving her WEST..

I recall that he tried to pull her eastwards but instead pushed her in a westerly direction.

[caz]

Its possible that the Schwartz altercation never happened cd. Quite possible by the evidence. Which makes the last sighting of Liz Stride alive, PC Smiths at 12:35.

Hi Michael,

But the evidence is that Schwartz did see some sort of altercation between the murder victim and a broad-shouldered man. You can't just dismiss his entire police statement as an out-and-out lie - not without some evidence that this particular witness, or his interpreter, had a logical reason to invent it.

I know you fancy this a Ripper murder...no secret there....

And we all know you don't fancy this a ripper murder, Michael, which is presumably why you have to play fast and loose with stuff like Schwartz's testimony, while getting on your high horse about others sticking like glue to the existing evidence.

I would think that for the murder to be associated with a serial mutilator you would need evidence of mutilation or attempted mutilation. Apparently many arent that fussy about following the actual evidence to its logical conclusion....which is that Liz Stride was killed by one cut....suddenly, in a second or two, and she was left to die untouched any further.

So if the killer of Nichols and Chapman had mutilated them after caving in their skulls twice with a frying pan, and Stride's skull had been caved in once by a frying pan-shaped object, the lack of a second blow or any actual ripping would indicate to you that at least two killers were at large in the vicinity, armed with lethal frying pans, despite the rarity of street women anywhere being murdered in the middle of the night with any type of weapon?

To call her murder a "ripping", compared with the earlier and later murders, is like building a house with toothpicks.....when confronted and tested, it cannot help but collapse in on itself.

Funny, but I don't recall anyone calling Stride's murder a "ripping". Making stuff like that up to try and make your point stronger only has the opposite effect. I'd stick with the baseline facts if I were you, Michael. You might have more luck convincing those on the fence that Stride was a one-off.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Ive said this Ripper fellow rips...thats why the letter of the 27th nicknamed him as such....ergo, ...no ripping, no interruption....likely no Ripper.

If you mean Dear Boss, the same writer who signed him/herself "Jack the Ripper" was happy enough to claim the unripped Stride in their follow-up postcard. I can see why they did so, even if you can't.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"If the cachous were out. . ."

Yes, IF they were out.

And I concur with the pulled east but thrown down west.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Surely, if the killer managed to subdue Stride so totally that he was able to lay her down 'gently' before (or as he was) cutting her throat, he was also able to move her into whatever position he chose between the subduing and the laying down. So how is it possible to tell what direction she was facing at the point when he subdued her into passive submission - and the cachous presumably stayed put because it was so sudden and so effective?

Love,

Caz
X

[moonbegger]

Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
In fighting form today Tom (posts #1532/3/4), but you're right on all points.

Thanks for that. And in case it wasn't apparent in my reply to Moonpie, the 'hack' I was bashing him for quoting was myself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I was wondering if Wick was cheering on all the points you made in the moonbashing post .. including the ones you made he was unaware of ?

Unbashed and very much unashamed ..

Moonbegger .

[moonbegger]

Hi Pink. So you're saying the stumbling block for you is James Brown's evidence of hearing Stride say 'Not tonight, some other night?'
Tom Wescott

Maybe you did not quite get the cut of my jib Tod

At the height of a murderous killing spree taking place on these very streets , we know the Ripper was more than capable of putting these unfortunate women at ease in his company , allowing them to lead him to .. Dark desolate back streets , Dark and desolate back yards , Darkest corner of a deserted square , Even inviting him home ! He definitely had the gift of the gab , familiarity, elevated status , whatever it was , it worked .. and in all probability he was given a time limit by the poor victim in which to commit his deadly deed .

Now turning back to Stride , and (according to a witness) she was not swooned or seduced into becoming an amicable victim , in fact quite the opposite ! She clearly wanted nothing to do with her would be assailant ..So was the Rippers charm offensive faulty on this particular night ? obviously not , because less than fifty minuets later he was charming the life out of poor Kate ! For me , his ability to put his victims at ease in his company was just as big a part of his MO as all the rest of it

According to the whole kerfuffle Schwartz witnessed , Liz was far from amicable .

Cheers ,

moonbegger .