Did jack kill liz stride?

[Sherlock Holmes]

Hunter, the knife in question, where was it found? Was it found at the site of the GSG? Your help with this portion of my investigation would be greatly appreciated

Regards Mr Holmes,

[Natasha]

Hello Natasha,

I think Stride's murder actually exposes Jack's humanity to us, insomuch that he's normally painted as this brazen killer who could slip in and out of the shadows to commit his ghastly deeds, but on this occasion something must have spooked him before he could finish his work, and it wasn't Diemshutz.

Hi Harry

That is a very important point to make, as this case is so old and has become something of an infamous legend, its easy to lose sight of the fact that (s)he was not superhuman. After all it is well known obvious fact, that most serial killers are the average Joe Bloggs type, the type that would not draw attention to themselves and who would even be someone who was considered trust worthy, normal and socially functional.

I did discount Liz because of the lack of injuries inflicted. I remember a news article on CB, where an unnamed woman (people think it was JTR that had attempted this attack) was attacked and sustained injuries to her arm, and I think there are some similarities to that attack and Liz's (I think she had a cut near her arm/back that had been inflicted from behind).

[Harry D]

Hi Harry

Because I feel Jack would have been more likely to get caught leaving the scene rather than been disturbed during the murder. I feel he was a quick operator and looking at other scenes of the crimes they were quite risky areas to be committing a murder, so time would need to be of the essence. Also I believe Israel Schwartz had witnessed the men that had committed the crime. Although having said that, I guess it's possible that JTR had an accomplice/lookout.

Hello Natasha,

I think Stride's murder actually exposes Jack's humanity to us, insomuch that he's normally painted as this brazen killer who could slip in and out of the shadows to commit his ghastly deeds, but on this occasion something must have spooked him before he could finish his work, and it wasn't Diemshutz.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Mike

1. Dr Phillips : My reason for believing that deceased was injured when on the ground was partly on account of the absence of blood anywhere on the left side of the body and between it and the wall

That same scene that Blackwell saw first and he still is on record with "while falling", .... I don't believe that 2 differing opinions can categorically define the correct answer.

To quote Blackwell in full: The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground ;-)
That, coupled with Dr Phillips opinion does lean towards her been injured whilst on the ground.

2. Well, all the vessels on the left side of the neck apart from the posterior portion of the carotid, to a line about 1-12th of an inch in extent to which I believe you allude to ?

Yep.. that's the quote, not completely severed...the one artery. Both arteries were severed in the previous victims and the depth of the double cuts nicked their spines..

Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, Kelly and McKenzie all had two cuts, and down to the vertebrae.
So, with Stride it looks like the first of the usual two cuts were inflicted.

3. But didn`t the letter writer who first signed himself as Jack the Ripper claim responsibility for Chapman, Stride and Eddowes ?

I believe that the letter received September 27th, date for the 25th, Dear Boss....is the first use of the "trade name" Jack the Ripper. Obviously that preceded the Stride and Eddowes murders. ..

The day the world became aware of the trade name does not mark the day the name came into existence.
As I said, "Jack the Ripper" claimed responsibility for Chapman, Stride and Eddowes.

Hard to imagine he didn't have time to cut off an ear when he had time to cut a section from her bowel and place it beside her, nick her cheeks and eyelids, cut her nose almost off, cut and tear her apron, and the cuts of course that opened the victim and excised the organs.

What if the facial mutilations were done first ? That would throw out the "he had enough time to stay by the body messing with her face so why no ears", argument?

And, he did have time to cut off one ear, Mike. Looks to me like he didn`t have time to retrieve it for the police , in the dark, amongst her clothing.

We can say with authority that Polly and Annie claimed to be out working the streets for their doss the night they met their killer, we can say Liz Stride left the lodging house with enough money for her doss, and when found dead, she did not have alcohol in her system. We don't know why around 12:35 she is seen outside the club, but we do know that using the statements of witnesses and club witnesses, almost 75% of the attendees had left around 11:30 and the remainder were all inside at 12:30..after we see Liz meets someone, there were no people on the street other than the young couple. We have no idea why Kate Eddowes goes the opposite direction when she leaves Bishopsgate that we would expect based... on her supposed relationship with Kelly , and we do not know what her relationship was with Sailor Man. We know that Mary was attacked and killed IN her room, not as a result of taking some client to a dark area.

Rather than assuming they were actively soliciting, perhaps its wise to remember that Liz Stride had recently separated from a relationship, Kate Eddowes relationship seems questionable based on her actions that last 24 hours and Kellys blatant lies on the stand...about when he knew Kate was in jail and about the Friday night pawning,.... and we know that Marys live in lover had only 8 days earlier moved out.

What we can say based on those points is that there is evidence that the last 3 victims assigned by popular opinion to the unknown killer Jack the Ripper all seem to have very recent rejection in their histories, something that quite often can spawn some form of retaliation by the rejectee.

It would seem that these three women, in the weeks leading up to their murders, were "at work among the Jews", hopping out of town, and running up a delinquent rent tab, respectively. None of which supports a position that any of the three had been engaging in any street prostitution work in the weeks leading up to their deaths.

Lets not sully those facts with guesswork that they were active prostitutes unless it can be legitimized.

And that Mike, is your recorded opinion at this point in time

[Natasha]

Hello Natasha,

What makes you think time was a factor in Stride's murder? It's commonly held that Jack was disturbed by someone or something which is why he curtailed his work on Stride and moved on.

Like I said before, I think it's too much of a coincidence that two Ripper-esque murders happen within an hour of each other. Look at the way Stride was killed and positioned so that the blood would flow away from the murderer and therefore avoid any bloodstaining. This had to be the same man.

Hi Harry

Because I feel Jack would have been more likely to get caught leaving the scene rather than been disturbed during the murder. I feel he was a quick operator and looking at other scenes of the crimes they were quite risky areas to be committing a murder, so time would need to be of the essence. Also I believe Israel Schwartz had witnessed the men that had committed the crime. Although having said that, I guess it's possible that JTR had an accomplice/lookout.

[Harry D]

I don't think Stride was a ripper victim. If it is true that Eddowes was killed approximately within 10 minutes, then I feel the ripper would have had enough time to 'finish' his intended task on Stride.

Hello Natasha,

What makes you think time was a factor in Stride's murder? It's commonly held that Jack was disturbed by someone or something which is why he curtailed his work on Stride and moved on.

Like I said before, I think it's too much of a coincidence that two Ripper-esque murders happen within an hour of each other. Look at the way Stride was killed and positioned so that the blood would flow away from the murderer and therefore avoid any bloodstaining. This had to be the same man.

[Natasha]

I don't think Stride was a ripper victim. If it is true that Eddowes was killed approximately within 10 minutes, then I feel the ripper would have had enough time to 'finish' his intended task on Stride.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again Jon,

Heres my return serve;


1. Dr Phillips : My reason for believing that deceased was injured when on the ground was partly on account of the absence of blood anywhere on the left side of the body and between it and the wall

That same scene that Blackwell saw first and he still is on record with "while falling", .... I don't believe that 2 differing opinions can categorically define the correct answer.

2. Well, all the vessels on the left side of the neck apart from the posterior portion of the carotid, to a line about 1-12th of an inch in extent to which I believe you allude to ?

Yep.. that's the quote, not completely severed...the one artery. Both arteries were severed in the previous victims and the depth of the double cuts nicked their spines.

3. But didn`t the letter writer who first signed himself as Jack the Ripper claim responsibility for Chapman, Stride and Eddowes ?

I believe that the letter received September 27th, date for the 25th, Dear Boss....is the first use of the "trade name" Jack the Ripper. Obviously that preceded the Stride and Eddowes murders. Saucy Jack does not refer to any specific victim but makes a reference that some believe is tied to the missing bit of ear lobe. Hard to imagine he didn't have time to cut off an ear when he had time to cut a section from her bowel and place it beside her, nick her cheeks and eyelids, cut her nose almost off, cut and tear her apron, and the cuts of course that opened the victim and excised the organs.

4.To be honest, I think they were all soliciting, or open to solicitation at some point.

Then that can be your recorded opinion on the matter at this point in time Jon , but Im afraid that has little bearing on what can be credibly stated,... what is lacking is any physical evidence or at least some witness corroboration.

We can say with authority that Polly and Annie claimed to be out working the streets for their doss the night they met their killer, we can say Liz Stride left the lodging house with enough money for her doss, and when found dead, she did not have alcohol in her system. We don't know why around 12:35 she is seen outside the club, but we do know that using the statements of witnesses and club witnesses, almost 75% of the attendees had left around 11:30 and the remainder were all inside at 12:30..after we see Liz meets someone, there were no people on the street other than the young couple. We have no idea why Kate Eddowes goes the opposite direction when she leaves Bishopsgate that we would expect based... on her supposed relationship with Kelly , and we do not know what her relationship was with Sailor Man. We know that Mary was attacked and killed IN her room, not as a result of taking some client to a dark area.

Rather than assuming they were actively soliciting, perhaps its wise to remember that Liz Stride had recently separated from a relationship, Kate Eddowes relationship seems questionable based on her actions that last 24 hours and Kellys blatant lies on the stand...about when he knew Kate was in jail and about the Friday night pawning,.... and we know that Marys live in lover had only 8 days earlier moved out.

What we can say based on those points is that there is evidence that the last 3 victims assigned by popular opinion to the unknown killer Jack the Ripper all seem to have very recent rejection in their histories, something that quite often can spawn some form of retaliation by the rejectee.

It would seem that these three women, in the weeks leading up to their murders, were "at work among the Jews", hopping out of town, and running up a delinquent rent tab, respectively. None of which supports a position that any of the three had been engaging in any street prostitution work in the weeks leading up to their deaths.

Lets not sully those facts with guesswork that they were active prostitutes unless it can be legitimized.

Cheers Jon

[Jon Guy]

Hi Mike

1. The blood evidence does not dictate a cut made while prone, as you well know, Blackwell would not have specified "while falling" if it was a decided issue by physical evidence alone.

Dr Phillips : My reason for believing that deceased was injured when on the ground was partly on account of the absence of blood anywhere on the left side of the body and between it and the wall

2. You sure about that...completely severed?

Well, all the vessels on the left side of the neck apart from the posterior portion of the carotid, to a line about 1-12th of an inch in extent to which I believe you allude to ?

3. True, except for the first 2 victims, who were the ones that prompted some letter author in late September to nickname the killer "Ripper".

But didn`t the letter writer who first signed himself as Jack the Ripper claim responsibility for Chapman, Stride and Eddowes ?

The fact that those 2 women were soliciting,..they admitted it to friends that night..could well be part of the killers MO and signature...actively working women....women who HAD to meet strangers on the street and encourage them to go somewhere in the dark with them. We don't know Liz was in that position or mindset, we don't know why Kate is meeting some fellow outside Mitre Square, and we do know that the evidence as it exists suggests that Mary was in her bed in her room when attacked.

The active solicitation may have been the most critical factor for him actually...hard to lure women who were not at their most desperate to dark places alone during that Fall, for sure. Women who facilitated the move to dark private spaces made his work so much easier.

To be honest, I think they were all soliciting, or open to solicitation at some point.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jon,

Ill address these three points;

1. Blackwell said "The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground", the blood close by her neck shows that her left carotid artery was severed whilst she was in the position that she was found.

2. The carotid artery on the left side and windpipe were severed.

3. Could also possibly be said of nearly all the Whitechapel victims. Whatever she was doing, she was standing alone on the streets late at night.

1. The blood evidence does not dictate a cut made while prone, as you well know, Blackwell would not have specified "while falling" if it was a decided issue by physical evidence alone.

2. You sure about that...completely severed?

3. True, except for the first 2 victims, who were the ones that prompted some letter author in late September to nickname the killer "Ripper". The fact that those 2 women were soliciting,..they admitted it to friends that night..could well be part of the killers MO and signature...actively working women....women who HAD to meet strangers on the street and encourage them to go somewhere in the dark with them. We don't know Liz was in that position or mindset, we don't know why Kate is meeting some fellow outside Mitre Square, and we do know that the evidence as it exists suggests that Mary was in her bed in her room when attacked.

The active solicitation may have been the most critical factor for him actually...hard to lure women who were not at their most desperate to dark places alone during that Fall, for sure. Women who facilitated the move to dark private spaces made his work so much easier.

Cheers Jon

[Harry D]

Two Ripper-esque murders happening in one night? Not likely. The guy who killed Stride was, again, an efficient 'butcher' who knew how to position the body as to avoid blood splatter, and didn't leave so much as a bloody footprint in his wake. I think Mary Kelly is arguably more of a question mark than Stride, tbh.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Mike

That notion Jon is questioned by the fact that Blackwell himself voiced an opinion that she many have been cut while falling, something uncharacteristic in any other alleged Ripper murder. .

Blackwell said "The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground", the blood close by her neck shows that her left carotid artery was severed whilst she was in the position that she was found.

Coupled with a singular cut, the partial severance of arterial structures,.

The carotid artery on the left side and windpipe were severed.

the location...that of assumed anarchists, presumably the kind of men committed to criminal acts in protest of the government, ...

Well, they were young and politically minded.

.and that there is no evidence that compels us to assume that Liz was there to solict sex from strangers,.....

Could also possibly be said of nearly all the Whitechapel victims. Whatever she was doing, she was standing alone on the streets late at night.

[Michael W Richards]

I think it`s the throat cut that commenced over the left carotid artery whilst the victims were lying down that compels some to the conclusion of a single killer.

That, and the sudden occurrence of these type of murders, to a certain type of victim, in a certain area, over a short period of time.

That notion Jon is questioned by the fact that Blackwell himself voiced an opinion that she many have been cut while falling, something uncharacteristic in any other alleged Ripper murder. Coupled with a singular cut, the partial severance of arterial structures, the location...that of assumed anarchists, presumably the kind of men committed to criminal acts in protest of the government, ...and that there is no evidence that compels us to assume that Liz was there to solict sex from strangers,...since the vast majority of the men in attendance had left the area an hour earlier and the remaining ones were all inside....there is ample reason to NOT assume Jack the Ripper must have been responsible for that murder.

Cheers

[Jon Guy]

What people seem to accept without any substantiation is that a single mad killer must have killed the women who had their throats slit....again, a feature not exclusive to murder in the East End.

I think it`s the throat cut that commenced over the left carotid artery whilst the victims were lying down that compels some to the conclusion of a single killer.

That, and the sudden occurrence of these type of murders, to a certain type of victim, in a certain area, over a short period of time.

[Sam Flynn]

What people seem to accept without any substantiation is that a single mad killer must have killed the women who had their throats slit....again, a feature not exclusive to murder in the East End.

Quite so, Michael.