Did jack kill liz stride?

[moonbegger]

How do we know she was not strangled/choked?

This is the detail I am waiting to see someone come up with a convincing argument - one way or the other. Was she, or wasn't she?

Hello Mike , should we add the inability to successfully strangle the life out of a victim as another inconsistency then ?

The Coroner: What was the cause of death? - Undoubtedly the loss of blood from the left carotid artery and the division of the windpipe.

[Coroner] A hand might have been put on her nose and mouth? - Yes, and the cut on the throat was probably instantaneous.

cheers

moonbegger

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom , I was just reading through some dissertations and stumbled across this ol chestnut ..

I think within the current discussion , this article needs to be championed .

As far as Stride is concerned .. Killed in a fairly well lit yard , next door to a busy club with people in and out regularly ( hardly the dark remote out of the way spot usually preferred by our killer ) also a long knife had been used to murder Nichols, Chapman, Eddows and Kelly whilst a short round knife had killed Stride , at a much earlier time . I feel there are more reasons to rule her out than rule her in . is it so inconceivable to believe there was more than one killer on the streets that night ?

cheers

moonbegger

First of all, Moon, you need to choose your sources more carefully. That dissertation you quote was clearly composed by a hack who was writing out of his arse. You should be ashamed of yourself for not showing more discretion. Secondly, the passageway of Dutfield's Yard was about as dark as the corner in Mitre Square, was just as "dark and remote" as any other murder sites, and here you once again trumpet the knife crap that every author repeats as though it's fact. Sorry, but it's a very thin nerve of mine. The knife that killed Stride was sharp...end of story...it was not round in the slightest, nor blunt...that's the Coram knife which bore no relation to the murder...and we cannot know if it was long or short. In other words, there's not one shred of evidence to suggest the knife that killed Stride was not the knife that killed Eddowes. That is fact. Only opinion and an absolute misunderstanding of the facts separates the Stride knife from the Eddowes knife. Ripperologists need to get this very simple fact through their skulls.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello MB. Thanks.

"But there was light from the club window's and still a fair commotion going on in the club, plus people in and out of the yard at an unpredictable rate."

Agreed.

Cheers.
LC

Yeah, one window overlooking the murder site...versus Chapman with 17...count 'em, 17...windows overlooking the site, at day break, and standing between these 30 odd people and the only water closets was the Ripper with his fresh corpse. And what do people tend to do first thing after waking? That's right, think Cadosch. And yet Dutfield's Yard was tricky? Come on, peeps.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

But of course it could be the same killer Mike , but why so many variances in the killers MO ?

There is really only one variance in his "M.O." and that is that Stride was not strangled, or at least not obviously so. Many people can be strangled and not show outward signs of it, simply due to the fact that they pass out quicker than others, before bruising can form. Also, garrotting was a simple and often used method in the East End for rendering a person unconscious without leaving marks. Considering the following from an East End criminal:

‘A lot of garrotting (sic) went on. Five years and a bashing you got for it – eighteen strokes with the cat. That was the penalty. But a lot of it still went on, by Flowery Dean Street (Flower & Dean Street), and in the pubs at the back of Leman Street, and all down the Highway. Even at the ‘Fleur de Lis’ in Elder Street I’ve known it done. Not in Bethnal Green. I’ve never known it done in Bethnal Green. You had to be tall to do it. You would come up to a man from behind, put your arms round his throat, with your fists on his throttle. If it went on for more than a few seconds he would choke, so you had to be skilled. Some of them had a girl working for them – she would get a man well boozed, mix his drinks for him and they’d get him while he was drunk.’

You are taking the doctors completely out of context in regards to the knife. Only one wound was inflicted - a cut - so naturally they answer that there was no way to tell if the tip was sharp, or how long the blade was. They can't say it's short or long, sharp or blunt, although they conceded the knife was likely sharp based on common sense and the fact that the blade of the knife was very sharp.

There is debate over whether or not Nichols was strangled. I do believe she likely was. Emma Smith was likewise unconscious for quite a while, though whether this was from choking, the hit on her head, or passing out, we don't know. There's pretty good evidence that Tabram was strangled, but the evidence is not conclusive. With Stride, the best we can say is there's no physical evidence of strangling, but we can't say she wasn't.

Bottom line is you were led to think Stride was a one-off because of misinformation. Little by little, that misinformation is stripped away, and it will be your choice to reconsider the conclusion you reached based on this misinformation, or hold on to it out of habit. Personally, I enjoy those moments when a new perspective can change my mind on something. But I've learned over the years I'm in the minority in that respect.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[moonbegger]

Yeah, one window overlooking the murder site...versus Chapman with 17...count 'em, 17...windows overlooking the site, at day break, and standing between these 30 odd people and the only water closets was the Ripper with his fresh corpse. And what do people tend to do first thing after waking? That's right, think Cadosch. And yet Dutfield's Yard was tricky? Come on, peeps.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom , I am unfortunately also in the Philips TOD camp putting Chapmans death considerably before day break .. Also spending my early days in a house with a water closet in the yard , i am fully aware of the many usages of a bucket ( think not going out in the cold )

PS sorry about the hack , although I still think he spoke a lot of sense ..

cheers , moonbegger .

[moonbegger]

If you accept a hurried murder; to kill quickly and be out of there (or to lurk until able to flee)

Mike

I think this is one of my main concerns Mike . The killer of stride did it quickly and knew he had to do it quickly because of all the ongoing shenanigans at the club , regardless of the dark passage . there was no comfort zone there for him or the time he would have needed to complete mutilations without serious danger of him getting caught red handed . Unless his only objective here was to kill her ! and that is a whole different ball game if that was the rippers sole intention .

cheers

moonbegger

[lynn cates]

invisible

Hello Jon.

"How do we know she was not strangled/choked?

This is the detail I am waiting to see someone come up with a convincing argument - one way or the other. Was she, or wasn't she?"

Because the obvious signs--protruding/lacerated tongue--were absent.

Yes, I know, I know--the invisible signs again.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

B S M

Hello Joe. Thanks.

One thing I appreciate about the BSM story is that it could account for Liz's peri-mortem bruising, as Tom suggests.

And, once again, if Schwartz is telling the truth, BSM is almost certainly your culprit.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

outcome

Hello Michael. In that case, why kill her at all? If there is not enough time/opportunity, why not go elsewhere?

"Others will try and deny that Stride was soliciting for the sole purpose of making her different to the others thereby lending credence to the idea that Stride was a different hand. It's a game and the outcome is far from certain."

Not for that sole purpose. And "deny" is too strong. What about "question"?

And I'm not sure how one could conclude a different hand based solely on the victim's pursuits?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

tricky

Hello Tom. Thanks.

I was merely agreeing with one aspect of a post.

In fact, I agree with you that Hanbury was perhaps the riskiest place of all. And that, I think, tells us something of the perpetrator.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Por que no?

Hello MB.

"Unless his only objective here was to kill her!"

Is there any overarching reason why it could not have been? Likewise, is there a reason to believe that it could not have been a mere outburst of anger?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Hello Michael. In that case, why kill her at all? If there is not enough time/opportunity, why not go elsewhere?

Why indeed? Perhaps you can take a stab at that.

Mike

[caz]

Hello MB.

"Unless his only objective here was to kill her!"

Is there any overarching reason why it could not have been? Likewise, is there a reason to believe that it could not have been a mere outburst of anger?

Hi Lynn,

And is there any reason to believe that the ripper - uniquely it seems - could not have killed Stride as a result of 'a mere outburst of anger'?

Jolly, even-tempered sort of chap, was he? Wouldn't harm a fly?

Love,

Caz
X

[The Good Michael]

Caz,

seriously, Lynn is always playing at this Socratic questioning thing. It's time he answered these questions he always asks with the very obvious answers such as the one you've just stated. Even a conspiracy person can look for alternative answers if they dig deep.

Mike

[moonbegger]

There is really only one variance in his "M.O." and that is that Stride was not strangled, or at least not obviously so. Many people can be strangled and not show outward signs of it, simply due to the fact that they pass out quicker than others, before bruising can form. Also, garrotting was a simple and often used method in the East End for rendering a person unconscious without leaving marks. Considering the following from an East End criminal:

You are taking the doctors completely out of context in regards to the knife. Only one wound was inflicted - a cut - so naturally they answer that there was no way to tell if the tip was sharp, or how long the blade was. They can't say it's short or long, sharp or blunt, although they conceded the knife was likely sharp based on common sense and the fact that the blade of the knife was very sharp.

Bottom line is you were led to think Stride was a one-off because of misinformation. Little by little, that misinformation is stripped away, and it will be your choice to reconsider the conclusion you reached based on this misinformation, or hold on to it out of habit. Personally, I enjoy those moments when a new perspective can change my mind on something. But I've learned over the years I'm in the minority in that respect.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom , I can probably be convinced that Stride may have been strangled or garroted ( regardless of evidence ) and I can probably be convinced that the knife used was long and sharp ( regardless of evidence either way ) I can also be convinced that Stride was working that night .. but here is my stumbling block Tom ..

At the height of a murderous killing spree taking place on these very streets , we know the Ripper was more than capable of putting these unfortunate women at ease in his company , allowing them to lead him to .. Dark desolate back streets , Dark and desolate back yards , Darkest corner of a deserted square , Even inviting him home ! He definitely had the gift of the gab , familiarity, elevated status , whatever it was , it worked .. and in all probability he was given a time limit by the poor victim in which to commit his deadly deed .

Now turning back to Stride , and (according to a witness) she was not swooned or seduced into becoming an amicable victim , in fact quite the opposite ! She clearly wanted nothing to do with her would be assailant .. and in a spot where she would have felt a lot safer than the other victims would have ..

The deceased and her companion must have seen the lights of the clubroom, and the kitchen, and of the printing office. They must have heard the music and dancing, for the windows were open.

So was the Rippers charm offensive faulty on this particular night ? obviously not , because less than fifty minuets later he was charming the life out of poor Kate ! For me , his ability to put his victims at ease in his company was just as big a part of his MO as all the rest of it , and quite possibly a bridge too far for me as far as stride being C5 .

cheers

moonbegger