Did jack kill liz stride?

[Hunter]

The first non club member on the scene was Spooner. Even though he had his timings wrong he probably arrived within 5 minutes of Louis' discovery of Liz. He stated that the blood was still flowing from the wound. Even though only the left carotid artery was cut the bleeding was obviously profuse and she still should have bled out in less than ten minutes. I believe she was killed much closer to 1 a.m. than 12:45. The doctors gave themselves some margine of error but by the time Blackwell got there 15 minutes had passed. If Louis had been more observant when he found her and had ample light he may have found her still dying. We'll never know. None of the club members were much help.

[Coroner] Have you ever seen men and women together in the yard? Diemshitz - Never.
[Coroner] Nor heard of such a thing? Diemshitz - No.

[caz]

I believe she was killed much closer to 1 a.m. than 12:45.

Hi Hunter,

I have a lot of catching up to do - I think this is the only post I've read in this thread!

But the above just caught my eye and I think you are spot on here. If you look at Blackwell's actual words, you will see that he supports your opinion.

In essence, he believed that death had most probably occurred no more than 20 minutes before his arrival at 1.16 am (ie after 12.56) but certainly within the half hour.

We simply don't know what was happening to Liz after Schwartz legged it at 12.45. There is a whacking great window of a quarter of an hour - a copper's beat; a brisk walk from Mitre Square - before the pony shied at 1 am, in which we can speculate to hell and back and never get anywhere.

But if we assume that Blackwell's best instincts served him well that night, Liz remained alive and uninjured for most of those fifteen minutes.

Love,

Caz
X

[corey123]

Caz, Hunter,

So...1 a.m. That seems a very logical time if you ask me. It would play well into the Jack the Ripper senerio.


caz,

We basically discussued Stride all the way through this thread.

I can try and sum it up, if you want??

Yours truly

[martin wilson]

Hi all,
so working from Spooner, Lamb and Blackwell we get 'blood still flowing, starting to congeal and 1lb of clotted blood.'
This tends to support a time of just before 1.am.
So going back to the Israel Schwartz evidence, BS man threw her to the ground at 12.45, hung around for 10 minutes or so,then cut her throat.
One puzzle is that Dr Philips stated 'there were no recent external injuries' at the inquest which I wonder about, if she were really thrown to the ground.
Going back to the earlier discussion about the police and the IWMEC, there is an interesting article on The Dictionary Of Victorian London, which is a policemans eye view of the socialist riot in Hyde Park in October 1887.
These guys were really going at each other, and so it seems at least reasonable to me to speculate that the relationship between the police and the IWMEC would not have been all that great.
all the best martin

[Garry Wroe]

Diemschutz eta 1.00 '2 quarts of blood' (eight pints, which means she must have bled out entirley …

A quart, Martin, is two pints. Two quarts therefore constitutes four pints.

PC Lamb eta 1.05? 'some of the blood had started to congeal', average time is 10-15 minutes but it can vary.

Spooner, who was on the scene even earlier than PC Lamb, noted that blood lying close to the body had already coagulated. Earlier still, on looking out at the scene from the kitchen doorway, Mrs Diemschutz observed that a rivulet of blood had escaped from the body, run to the kitchen end of the yard, and was already dripping into an adjacent grate.

Forensics do something called a blood volume test to determine times but I am getting nowhere fast trying to find about it

Heat, wind and bloodflow rate can affect the coagulation process. It might also be remembered that the night in question had been punctuated by several heavy showers which, given that they would have made the ground damp or even wet, could and probably did inhibit the congealing effect.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Martin,

One puzzle is that Dr Philips stated 'there were no recent external injuries' at the inquest which I wonder about, if she were really thrown to the ground.

You're probably referring to what Phillips took at first to be an abrasion on Stride's face, but later discovered it was just dirt. Keep in mind that no autopsy had been performed at the time he gave this evidence. The body had not even been washed or disrobed. The inquest jury was taken to see Stride in the mortuary exactly how she'd been found. After the cleaning of the body it was discovered that there were no external injuries except the neck wound, a bruise to the chest, and thumb mark bruising over both shoulders.

These guys were really going at each other, and so it seems at least reasonable to me to speculate that the relationship between the police and the IWMEC would not have been all that great.

Your speculations would be correct. The police were called on them just about a week before when the IWEC undertook an anti-Jewish march. The one group that hated them more than the police were religious Jews! The police would eventually succeed in closing down their house, but they just moved into other digs.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Garry Wroe]

So...1 a.m. That seems a very logical time if you ask me. It would play well into the Jack the Ripper senerio.

It might seem logical, Corey, but it is a long way from being evidentially robust.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[The Grave Maurice]

"Evidentially robust". What a great phrase. We could use a lot more of that around here.

[Hunter]

Caz, I love your outfit. You should see the dresses of some of the women at our events.

Well, lets look at what Spooner and Lamb said.

[Coroner] Was any blood coming from the throat? [Spooner] - Yes; it was still flowing...
[Coroner] Did you notice whether the blood was still moving on the ground? [Spooner]- It was running down the gutter. I stood by the side of the body for four or five minutes, until the last witness arrived. (Lamb)
Spooner makes no mention of congealed blood.

[PC Lamb- arriving appr. 5 minutes later] There were no signs of a struggle. Some of the blood was in a liquid state, and had run towards the kitchen door of the club. A little - that nearest to her on the ground - was slightly congealed. I can hardly say whether any was still flowing from the throat. Dr. Blackwell was the first doctor to arrive; he came ten or twelve minutes after myself, but I had no watch with me.

With only one carotid artery severed, Liz would have bled more profusely than otherwise. The heart would continue pumping longer until the brain was deprived of oxygen. The other vivtims would have died almost instantly with the blood flow subsiding quickly after that. Elizabeth faded into eternal sleep, clutching her cachous and drawing her legs in final agony as her life's blood flowed into the gutter. If the killer intended mutilation, he probably would have waited until the bleeding had reduced somewhat before touching her.

I don't know why Liz wasn't mutilated. Perhaps it was Goldstein passing by that started to make him leary before the arrival of Loius' cart. Mrs. Mortimer heard footsteps after returning inside just before 1. We know it wasn't PC Smith.

Finally, and I'm being redundant- " There was no sign of a struggle".
Other women were victims of domestic homicide- i.e.- Sarah Brown- but there was always sign of a struggle as they desperately tried to avoid their assailant. If the man Schwartz claimed he saw killed Liz, giving Schwartz's description of the altercation, I doubt she would have looked as if she was "gently laid down". Elizabeth Stride never saw it coming. What kind of man would kill a prostitute in a dark alley, late at night, without apparent provocation? There was someone walking the streets of Whitechapel that night that did kill in Mitre Square. One heck of a coincidence.

Some are willing to accept variations in the other murders as adjustment that serial killers make to continue operations- i.e.- Mary Kelly ( unless you're a previous member here that thought that Stride was a one off and the last two were copycats. The original murderer thought they did such a good job that he just stopped). It is universally acknowledged that the killer was probably interrupted with Polly Nichols, thus killing again in a few days to complete his mission. Why would it be illogical to presume that after an aborted attempt in Dutfields Yard, the murderer would kill again within 12 minutes walk on the same night to complete his mission. He had an earlier start that night and after commiting at least 2 previous murders may have been more bold. The risk at Mitre Square looks bold to me. As someone has said, serial killers are not predictable robots.

[Observer]

Hi, I had a conversation with a Doctor friend of mine many moons ago regarding the wound inflicted to Liz Strides throat, I have posted his thoughts here in Casebook before, it went something like this.

After the initial gush of blood from Liz Strides throat her blood pressure would have dropped quite dramatically, this together with the fact that she was lying on the ground, and the fact that her heart had stopped beating would mean that the flow of blood would have reduced to a trickle.

The doctor was of the opinion that even after the initial gush there would still be a fair amount of blood remaining in Liz Strides body.

LIz Strides body was very very slightly inclined towards the rear of the yard this is apparent due to the fact that the trail of blood extended away from her into gutter.

When asked if Liz Stride had had her throat cut at 12:45 would it be possible for liquid blood to be seen isssuing from her neck 20 minutes later the Doctor answered in the affirmative.

Let me add that the Doctor had examined all the evidence we have at our disposal before making his decision regarding the throat wound.

all the best

Observer

[Hunter]

Good capitalist

From the Echo- Oct. 1, 1888

FIVE SHILLINGS PER VISITOR.

The Club itself (proceeds the reporter), which is next door to the large gate, is now closed, but all this afternoon members and others who have special business there, are admitted after knocking at the door. The committee of the institution held a meeting this morning, at which the crime was talked over, and it was decided not to admit any stranger without the payment of a fee. The fee, the secretary explained, was to [???]. The committee, it seems, did not fix the amount to be charged; but, in reply to a question, the secretary said he thought that 5s. would not be too much. Considering there is nothing to be seen, this is rather an extortionate price to be paid by those whose curiosity leads them to Berner-street.

They didn't mind capitalism when it suited them. Bet they donated some of that money to Elizabeth's funeral expenses, huh?
These same people who never saw Liz there before, though PC Smith and possibly others did.
These same people who never saw prostitutes with men in the Yard, though their neigbor said there were.

God help them.
Oh, thats right, they didn't believe in him either.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Hunter,

What makes you think PC Smith had seen Liz there before?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[martin wilson]

Well I asked for help and I certainly got it, thanks for all the info guys, seems it ends up as inconclusive although I am still curious about this congealing business, I got 5 answers of 10- 15 minutes, or are they talking about laboratory conditions and not the damp back yard of a socialist club?
Tom, I thought those marks were from the fatal attack, I am puzzled because if it was from BS man it shows he gripped Elizabeths shoulders with some force, and yet there were no scratches or scrapes you would expect to see if she had been thrown with the amount of force suggested.
Why did religous Jews hate the boys from Berner street?, were they breaking a jewish law or were they just seen as troublemakers the jewish community could have done without?
Also I want to ask about the lack of mutilations, I am going to assert that one reason was that it was too dark! any thoughts?
all the best martin

[martin wilson]

I should have said apart from renouncing their faith of course, I noticed they all affirmed rather than be sworn in at the inquest,but a jew wouldnt swear on the bible anyway would they? or was this a show of solidarity brothers?
I am with Hunter on this, you can get up to all sorts of shenanigans when you no longer have to observe reilgous strictures.
Is it worth researching Police beats?, I am curious how PC Smiths beat took him into Berner street every half an hour, totally normal beat or were the police keeping an eye on them?
all the best martin.

[Dave James]

Hi all,

Newby really on this, but, it seems to me that this was a domestic.
For Jack, too many witnesses, too early in the morning. Forget not enough time. The evidence would suggest a dipute rather than a 'Ripper' assault. To me, it suggests Kidney saw his woman with someone else and reacted.
I might be wrong, but every other opinion on this is just as open.
If you were JtR, would you do the 'bizz' with all the witnesses? Or chance of witnesses?
Let's face it, up till now, his attacks were in quiet, out of the way places.

Let's face it, Jack might have been 'loopy fruit', but he wouldn't have performed in a situation where he had an immediate ordience, ie people coming out of a popular club. On the other hand, a domestic is in the heat of the moment, sod the surroundings!

Views please,
All the best
Dave