Did jack kill liz stride?

[Hunter]

Domestics usually happen indoors. The victim usually puts up a resistance. The killer is usually known and apprehended.The police and the medicos agreed that Stride was killed by surprise. She exibited no signs of resistance.

Unless the police were fools, they had to check Kidney's alibi. He would have been an initial suspect . He wasn't just called to the inquest to identify Liz. The line of questioning shows that he had probably been interogated.

[corey123]

Hunter, Dave,

And, like I said, they are usually very violent, and sometimes premeditated.

But with the level of emotion it is hard to keep a cool head after a domestic dispute.

Hunter,

Thanks

[Dave James]

Dave,

But this murder, if a domestic, was not the spur of the moment. What the hell were they doing in dutfields yard then? Why was he carrying around a long knife?

Anyhow, good thing you pulled away.

Yours truly

Cory, Thanks for your comment.
But... a domestic is a spur of the moment, it may have been building for a period of time, but it just needs a triger to escalate.
If, for instance, Liz and Kidney had a long running 'disagreement', which is in the records, then you have the ideal situation for the incident.
Liz had left Mr Kidney for what ever reason, a few days before. The 'evidence' says Liz was making an effort to look good before she went out that night. The evidence also points to the fact that she spent the night with one person. (A new boyfriend?). She apparantly made a lot of effort to look good before she went out.
So, Liz has had a good night out with her new boyfriend, (Is he new?), then Kidney see's them together. He's had a few beers, he's p***d about his lady with another man. It doesn't start as murder, it starts as 'Liz, what are you doing?' She says 'It's not your business" etc, etc, and then Kidney looses his rag and bam, dead body!
Only my opinion, but...?
All thebest
Dave

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom, I hope your essay is online as I dont subscribe to the mag, also I was really getting into your Hanbury street investigation and it said there were pages missing! what chance have idiots like me got?
all the best martin

Hi Martin! I believe the editors of Ripperologist have chosen not to work with me, so it will be published in a different medium. Since it's my essay I can, of course, make sure you get a copy, and I thank you for your interest. As for my Hanbury Street investigation, I imagine it's missing quite a few pages, as I don't recall having written one.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Observer]

Hi Corey

As I have said before, no one can truly deduce what went on in the mind of the individual known as Jack the Ripper. If he did murder Liz Stride, then it would be natural to assume that he would mutilate her but then again what do we know?

We know that in case of Chapman, her killer arranged some of her meagre possesions in a rather mocking way by the side of her body.

Eddowes thimble lay rather tantalisingly by the side of her hand, did her killer place it thus?

And Liz Strides cachous, did it belong to Stride, or was her killer wont to keep his breath fresh with cachous? Slitting Liz Strides throat, may well have sufficed for him at that time, but as a little jape, he decided to leave a little clue in the form of the cachous in her hand.

all the best

Observer

[Tom_Wescott]

If the killer gave the cachous to Liz, I imagine it was while she was still alive. It was found loosely gripped between her thumb and forefinger, so she was holding it when she died.

And Kidney did not kill Stride. LOL, don't get me started.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Hello Dave,

I used to think Kidney was her murderer also for the same reasons that you stated, but the evidence shows otherwise.

Kidney and Liz had separated on several ocasions- probably over her drinking because I don't believe he minded getting money from her profession. The evidence points to the probability of her soliciting. She was a prostitute. Even Mr. Bates from her lodging house admitted that. She was known to try to keep her apperance up- good for business and she had been at it for a long time. She was reportedly seen with several different men in the two hours before her death. She is out at 1 a.m. in the street. Where is her boyfriend? She also has no money on her when found though she had not been robbed.

[Observer]

Hi Tom

Whats to stop her killer staging this effect, that is the cachous between forefinger and thumb?

all the best

Observer

[Dave James]

Hello Dave,

I used to think Kidney was her murderer also for the same reasons that you stated, but the evidence shows otherwise.

Kidney and Liz had separated on several ocasions- probably over her drinking because I don't believe he minded getting money from her profession. The evidence points to the probability of her soliciting. She was a prostitute. Even Mr. Bates from her lodging house admitted that. She was known to try to keep her apperance up- good for business and she had been at it for a long time. She was reportedly seen with several different men in the two hours before her death. She is out at 1 a.m. in the street. Where is her boyfriend? She also has no money on her when found though she had not been robbed.

Hi Hunter,
I'll agree to disagree,
Liz made a particular effort to look good that night before she went out, she tried to borrow a clothes brush to get smart before she went out.
She had already earned her doss money before she went out, cleaning for her landlady. The fact that she went out with the landlady and then came home to get dressed up indicates that this was a special occasion.
Like all of the victims, Liz was a casual prostitute, when needs must rather than a full time occupation. It would seem on this night that she didn't need!

All the evidence indicates that she was with the same person all night, not several clients. When was the last time you saw a tart kissing and cuddling with a client?

Kidney was a working man for all his sins, he wouldn't be relying on Liz's earnings as such.

No, I'm sorry - domestic not JtR.
All the best
Dave

[The Grave Maurice]

All the evidence indicates that she was with the same person all night....

The evidence indicates no such thing, unless he changed his clothing every twenty minutes. Although the obvious suspect here was Kidney, the police ruled him out.

[corey123]

Hi Maurice,


Haven't seen you around here in a while. Good to see you.

Anywhays, I agree, the evidence does indeed suggest that she was with multiple clients that night, unless you discount every witness testimony.

Yours truly

[Dave James]

Hi all,
From this site;

Saturday-Sunday, September 29-30, 1888. TElizabeth spends the afternoon cleaning two rooms at the lodging house. For her services she is paid 6d by Elizabeth Tanner.
September 30th, 1888
6:30 PM: Tanner sees her again at the Queen's Head Public House. They drank together and then walked back to the lodging house.
7:00-8:00 PM: She is seen leaving the lodging house by Charles Preston and Catherine Lane. She gives Lane a large piece of green velvet and asks her to hold it for her until she returns. She ask Preston to borrow his clothes brush but he has mislaid it. She then leaves passing by Thomas Bates, watchman at the lodging house who says she looked quite cheerful. Lane will later state that "I know the deceased had 6d when she left, she showed it to me, stating that the deputy had given it to her."
11:00 PM: Two labourers, J. Best and John Gardner were going into the Bricklayer's Arms Public House on Settles street, north of Commercial Road and almost opposite Berner Street. As they went in Stride was leaving with a short man with a dark mustache and sandy eyelashes. The man was wearing a billycock hat, mourning suit and coat. Best says "They had been served in the public house and went out when me and my friends came in. It was raining very fast and they did not appear willing to go out. He was hugging and kissing her, and as he seemed a respectably dressed man, we were rather astonished at the way he was going on at the woman." Stride and her man stood in the doorway for some time hugging and kissing. The workmen tried to get the man to come in for a drink but he refused. They then called to Stride. "That's Leather Apron getting 'round you." The man and Stride moved off towards Commercial Road and Berner Street. "He and the woman went off like a shot soon after eleven."
11:45 PM: William Marshall, a labourer, sees her on Berner Street. He is standing in the doorway of 64 Berner Street on the west side of the street between Fairclough and Boyd Streets. He notices her talking to a man in a short black cutaway coat and sailor's hat outside number 63. They are kissing and carrying on. He hears the man say "You would say anything but your prayers."
12:00 AM: Matthew Packer claims to sell Stride and a man grapes. This is a very dubious piece of evidence. See Sugden's The Complete History of Jack the Ripper for the pros and cons of this story.
12:35 AM: Police Constable William Smith sees Stride with a young man on Berner Street opposite the International Working Men's Educational Club. The man is described as 28 years old, dark coat and hard deerstalker hat. He is carrying a parcel approximately 6 inches high and 18 inches in length. the package is wrapped in newspaper.
Schwartz describes the man as about 30 years old, 5' 5" tall with a fresh complexion, dark hair and small brown mustache. He is dressed in an overcoat and an old black felt hat with a wide brim.
At the same time, James Brown says he sees Stride with a man as he was going home with his supper down Fairclough Street. She was leaning against the wall talking to a stoutish man about 5' 7" tall in a long black coat that reached to his heels. He has his arm against the wall. Stride is saying "No, not tonight, some other night."

I really don't think Liz spent all night in company with JtR - face it, if you were this manic killer, would you put your face all over the area with your next victim?

All the best
Dave

[Tom_Wescott]

Sorry Tom I should have been clearer, it was part of Berner street part 2
in Jack the Slasher' I was looking at the photograph and I am baffled how
John Richardson didnt see her.
Later on it says pages 57-108 not part of this review
what do you mean I have got to buy the book?
all the best martin

Hi Martin,

Oh, you mean from Ripper Notes. I would e-mail you a copy of that essay, except I don't have one. My computer shot craps some time back and I lost almost all my Stride and Ripper notes, including my pdf and word copies of essays I'd written. It's not something I like to talk about. LOL. As for my current essays, they'll be published either online or elsewhere, or those I could just e-mail to you. Having said that, and despite my personal differences with its editorship, I strongly recommend a subscription to Ripperologist. It's the only Ripper journal left and they do an extremely good job overall. You can get 12 issues for the price of one crappy Ripper book, so it's a safe and wise investment.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Did Liz have a secret lover?

Hi all, there seems to be a quirk with the board right now. I replied to Martin's post and my post appeared ABOVE his. LOL.

Hunter,

Thanks for that and I will let you know. I personally think it's our good fortune that there were so many witnesses to Liz's movements on the day of her death. A shame there weren't more! I don't see the information as problematic, with the exception of Schwartz. In his case, there's a good amount of reason to conclude that he made the whole thing up, but no 'smoking gun', therefore one is forced to leave him in.

As for Liz, there is no question that she was an active prostitute and no reason to suppose she wasn't prostituting that night. Unlike Nichols and Chapman, she did not sleep in the open air or on cheap doss beds every night. She was used to sleeping in her own house with Kidney and when she DID sleep in a lodging house, she clearly got preferred treatment due to her friendship with the deputy. Therefore, one shouldn't be surprised that Stride's personal hygiene habits were superior to some of the other women. The same goes for Mary Kelly, who reportedly was clean and kept a clean apron. This would come from having your own place and ready access to water, fire, etc.

On the evening of her death, she's seen with a different man approximately every 45 minutes. The fact that Stride possessed herself of cachous indicates she had no problem kissing. In fact, the man Best and Gardner saw her kissing at the Bricklayer's Arms is almost certainly not the same man William Marshall saw her kissing 45 minutes later, so this might have been one of her attractions to men who enjoyed such foreplay.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[martin wilson]

Hi all,
Sorry Tom I should have been clearer, it was part of Berner street part 2
in Jack the Slasher' I was looking at the photograph and I am baffled how
John Richardson didnt see her.
Later on it says pages 57-108 not part of this review
what do you mean I have got to buy the book?
all the best martin