Did jack kill liz stride?

[corey123]

Dave,

It would fit with Jack if something went wrong(which most likely did. Not many people kill for the kill itself. Also, domestic cases are usually more violent).

There is a lot to suggest that Jack the Ripper did indeed kill Elizabeth Stride.

Yours truly

[martin wilson]

Hi Dave
My views on Kidney are that there is some odd stuff, this padlocking her in,very strange, also the odd reply he gave at the inquest when asked if she was seeing someone else.
I lean towards the idea that they had plenty of rows, so why this row?, and Kidney may have needed her for what money she could bring in, he moved to a cheaper lodging house after her death.
Another point is that 'domestics' at least in my experience are usually noisy affairs, and yet nobody heard anything.
all the best martin

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Martin,

Regarding the blood, quite a bit was collected atop a large stone that was directly under her neck. These jagged stones comprised the make-shift gutter of the club. What blood didn't go on the stone ended up in the gutter. Phillips remarked on the 'unusual' amount of blood present, but because it was so dark, he may not have taken into consideration that the blood had mixed with the water in the gutter and therefore appeared more than there was.
As for the abrasion on her face, Phillips was recalled on a a different day of the inquest and testified that when washed there was no abrasion. Schwartz didn't really intimate what matter of forced was used, merely that BS Man turned Stride around and threw her down. I would expect bruising or abbrasions on her hands and/or knees, but there were none. She was obviously not holding the cachous when/if this event occurred.
The men of the IWEC were not merely non-religious Jews, they were socialists and anarchists who were out to recruit other Jews and convert them to their way of thinking. They also wanted to take on the establishment. Their club was co-founded by the daughter of Karl Marx.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

Hi all,

sorry, but after 80 pages, it may be time to flatly state : Liz is a Ripper victim.
Nothing at all can suggest a domestic affair, and ALL the investigators believed her to be a Ripper victim.

What else ?
Nothing.

Amitiés,
David

[Observer]

Why did he not mutilate? The fact that he'd been seen by two witnesses, and feared imminent police arrival. The sounds emanating from the club, the singing and dancing. The flow of noisy drinkers in Commercial Street, as they made their way home could have been heard in Dutfields Yard, PC Lamb stating

The Coroner: I think this is important. The Hanbury-street murder was discovered just as the night police were going off duty. (To witness, PC Lamb): Did you see anything suspicious? - I did not at any time. There were squabbles and rows in the streets, but nothing more.

A combination of these factors could have prevented Strides killer mutilating her, he deciding to get out of there, it's also possible that someone passed in the Street as he knelt over the body of Liz Stride, individuals were up and about at that hour.

all the best

Observer

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael Kidney

Newby really on this, but, it seems to me that this was a domestic.
For Jack, too many witnesses, too early in the morning. Forget not enough time. The evidence would suggest a dipute rather than a 'Ripper' assault. To me, it suggests Kidney saw his woman with someone else and reacted.
I might be wrong, but every other opinion on this is just as open.
If you were JtR, would you do the 'bizz' with all the witnesses? Or chance of witnesses?
Let's face it, up till now, his attacks were in quiet, out of the way places.

Hi Dave and Martin,

I'm now putting the finishing touches on an essay entitled 'Exonerating Michael Kidney', which might answer a lot of questions for you. For instance, he never padlocked Stride into their rooms. That's an error made by modern writers.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Dave James]

Dave,

It would fit with Jack if something went wrong(which most likely did. Not many people kill for the kill itself. Also, domestic cases are usually more violent).

There is a lot to suggest that Jack the Ripper did indeed kill Elizabeth Stride.

Yours truly

Hi Corey,
I agree, but there is also a lot to say that this wasn't a Jack. Domestics are a spur of the moment, it starts as a diagreement and escalates rapidly, what could be 'Come home Liz, enough is enough. We'll sort it out to morrow.' can rapidly escalate to 'You silly B****, now look what you've made me do.' At that time, as much as this, a knife was part and parcel of your equiptment. It'so easy to pull the knife then, (a gun now), and use it, because you have lost it, 'cos you are also pissed!
Who knows how this happens unless you've been in this situation? I'm not saying that everybody reacts in the same way, but you must have seen a similar situation in your own area, the way that minor dissagreements can escalate for some stupid reason.
All the best
Dave

[corey123]

Dave, David,

I agree with David, after 80 pages of Stride(bravo for that) more than most of the investigators believe Strides killer to be Jack the Ripper.

He IS the best candidate.

Dave,

In a domestic murder, the way you describe it is not the common escilation process. A murderer will have a trial of anger and this will build up till a boiling point, in which a trigger sets it off. This explains the extream violence level in domestic murders. They are usually a result of major overkill.

Not just one knife wound to the throat.

Most domestics are premeditated too.

I have my reasons to believe the victims of Jack the Ripper were killed because of oppertunity.

Observer,

Read this thread and it may give you some ideas at why there were no mutilations.

yours truly

[Observer]

Hi Corey

I have read, and taken in, what has transpired during this thread. I dont believe Deimshutz disturbed the killer, I beleive she was killed at approx 12:45 shortly after the assault as witnessed by Schwartz.

Observer

[corey123]

Hi Observer,

I don't think he disturbed him either, but I think something went wrong, something stopped Jack from doing his worst.

Yours truly

[Dave James]

Continuation

Hi Cory,
Sorry to disagree, but most domestics are spur of the moment, a trigger at the time of the act. If you look at any history of murder, most are one off's, one person has annoyed the other and there has been an immediate violent reaction. Nothing planned, just a burst of violence, (which we are all capable of, whether we admit or not - why do we play violent sports?).
I hate to admit this, but a few years ago I was in exactly this situation, luckily I pulled back, but it was close!
All the best
Dave

[corey123]

Dave,

But this murder, if a domestic, was not the spur of the moment. What the hell were they doing in dutfields yard then? Why was he carrying around a long knife?

Anyhow, good thing you pulled away.

Yours truly

[martin wilson]

Hi all,
Tom, I hope your essay is online as I dont subscribe to the mag, also I was really getting into your Hanbury street investigation and it said there were pages missing! what chance have idiots like me got?
all the best martin

[DVV]

Hi Cory,
Sorry to disagree, but most domestics are spur of the moment, a trigger at the time of the act. If you look at any history of murder, most are one off's, one person has annoyed the other and there has been an immediate violent reaction. Nothing planned, just a burst of violence, (which we are all capable of, whether we admit or not - why do we play violent sports?).
I hate to admit this, but a few years ago I was in exactly this situation, luckily I pulled back, but it was close!
All the best
Dave

Hi Dave,

obviously Kidney wasn't a Nobel Price and the police did suspect him.
And cleared him quickly.

That night the WM killed Eddowes. About 45 minutes after Liz. And BSM and Sailor Man could very well be one and the same guy.
If Kidney killed Stride, then I bet I'll win 100 millions euros tomorrow.

Amitiés,
David

[Hunter]

Hi Hunter,

What makes you think PC Smith had seen Liz there before?

Hi Tom,

I meant before she was found dead by the club members who had never seen her before that happened.