Did jack kill liz stride?

[DVV]

And not even an Italian Stallion...

Cheers, Cowgirl Archy

Worse, my friend.
Corsican!

Amitiés, une belle nuit,
David

[Hunter]

Horses

Hello Archaic,

You are right on about the tarp thing. My horse is used to canvas tents, jackets laying on the ground, even people sleeping on the ground in the dark when we are at an event, but a plastic bag blown from somewhere hanging on a branch will make him at least stop and flair those nostrils to try and identify it. One time I had an inexperienced rider try to learn to shoot a pistol off of him. He was having trouble staying balanced in the saddle and while grabbing my horse's mane, he accidently discharged the pistol right between the horse's ears ( he was shooting blanks). To this day I can fire from the left or right with no trouble but when firing over his head he throws it up. They never forget anything. Also, when riding in column, if a horse in the lead shies from something every horse behind him- no matter how dead broke they are- will do the same... That herd instinct of prey animals I guess.


Anyway, Louis' pony would probably have shyed at Liz's body and remained nervous for a while until it no longer felt threatened. That's not to say someone else couldn't have been there in the shadows, but they didn't have to be.

Best wishes,
Hunter

[Archaic]

Hi, Hunter.
I envy you being a cavalry re-enactor; do you do Civil War re-enactments? God, I would love that!

I have a friend out here in the Seattle area that advises mounted re-enactors & is a movie consultant for cavalry scenes.

I live out in the country now & have several neighbors who do the 'Black Powder' Mounted Shooting stuff... they offered to teach me.

-Gosh, I hope they give me blanks the first few times! lol

Cheers & Carrots, Archaic

[Hunter]

Yes, Arch, I am a Civil War reenactor- have been doing it since the 1980's and love it. I am what my parents called early in my life a history nut and getting to live a piece of it is a thrill that few have experienced- but should. Its the ultimate escapism from our daily lives. It was the want to learn the history of Victorian times that led to my interest in JTR, which may sound strange for a countryboy from Tennessee I've always been interested in the lives of those long since gone because we are a product of what came before us. The county that I live in had 12 Civil War battles fought in it and my family fought in it... so the connection is strong.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Archaic]

Hunter, I love the same things you do. I've been a history buff since I was a small child & Civil War battlefields are my favorite.

The Shiloh Battlefield is the most emotionally intense place I've ever been, even more so than Gettysburg.

Oops, we better not get the thread off-track

"Jine The Cavalry, Yee-haw!"
Archaic

[corey123]

I dont mind Arch.

[perrymason]

I guess Ill join in with my own horse and civil war creds... ....weve had horses most of my life and my sister breeds them and great danes down on her farm in Texas, and I have been a Civil War buff since I first started reading, and have visited most of the major battles fields and some smaller sites. I have a collection of antique weapons, and some rifles and bayonets are Civil War relics.

And horses are way too smart in my opinion.

That being said, if the horse shied....all that remains important is at what time that occurred.

If Louis pulled in after 12:35 and before 12:45, then nothing on record in terms of witness statements is an issue....except for Louis and his times. If he pulled in and found Liz and called Issac, then Issac's account works. If he was sent out and comes back later with Eagle and the police, that means that Louis was with someone other than Issac when he goes towards Grove Street...as Spooner remembers 2 men...but that would confirm roughly Spooner's time given. Louis again would be incorrect.If the cart and horse were removed between 12:45 and 1am, then Fanny may have heard the cart leaving not arriving....she would hear a faint sound getting louder then faint again....she may not have been able to tell which direction that sound started from. If Fanny heard bootsteps she thought were policemen's boots before 12:56am, then she may have heard Isaac leaving to find help. In any scenario really, Louis would have had to have lied.

If anyone had reasons to lie to protect the club against any possible suspicion for housing Liz Strides killer or perhaps even the Ripper himself....that would fall to either Louis, or Wess. The 2 main players at that Club.Wess opens the Inquest and places himself off site when the murder occurs, so that leaves Louis to protect the clubs interests.

If Louis D believed that the murder was not committed by anyone at that club at that time who was affiliated directly with the Club, he would have no moral objection to suggesting times that place the members in the least likely position to have been the killer...they were simply all indoors at the time apparently.

I would think one of the most dangerous things to be at that time, when in the close proximity to a crime thought to have been the work of The Ripper, would be a European Jew who lived with friends or relatives. Anderson used the searches and other data to determine that "fact" about the killer.....so lots of folks in that Club at that time might have loosely fit Andersons profile. And the near riots stirred against Jews in the area in September were a warning for anyone who the police suggested might be the culprit.

Best regards all.

[Archaic]

Hi Mike, Happy New Year!

Wow, with all these horses and history-buffs, how 'bout we form ourselves a POSSE?

Ripperologists on horseback... we'll catch Jack at last!

Archaic

[perrymason]

Hi Mike, Happy New Year!

Wow, with all these horses and history-buffs, how 'bout we form ourselves a POSSE?

Ripperologists on horseback... we'll catch Jack at last!


Archaic

I reckon thats a mighty find idea, M'am...we might even saddle up a few great danes for any lightweights that want to ride with us.

Happy New Year to you too Archy....Im popping the cork early, so ciao till next year.

[Archaic]

Asta la vista, baby!

I'm on Pacific Time, it's still early...just sipping some nice brandy for now.

See you next year.

Archaic

[Sox]

The position od Strides body is consistant with what we know of a Ripper attack. It is possible her attacker had choked her (maybe even with her own scarf) and cut her throat while she was on the ground, turning her onto her side to avoid arterial spray. Perhaps while she is 'bleeding out' he has lifted her skirts and begun to undo her clothing (her coat I believe was undone) in preparation for his ritual mutilation.

Enter Diemschutz.

The biggest problem of all when contemplating the death of Liz Stride is not how her throat was cut, the position of her body etc etc, the biggest question is why, if Diemschutz did indeed disturb the killer, did he not see him?

The killer could have bolted when he heard the cart coming. Unlikely he would be bothered by the sound of a cart, given that he has attacked Stride only feet away from a building full of singing people...he cant have known the cart was going to enter the yard until he actually saw it turning into the gate, at which point, if he runs out then Diemschutz see's him.

I found this interesting, thanks to Michael.....

Morris Eagle: 'They returned with me to the yard. I then noticed several members of the club and some strangers were there'

....and this

The Coroner: Was there anything to prevent anyone escaping while you were examining the body?

PC Lamb: It is quite possible, as I was then there by myself. There was a lot of confusion and everyone was looking towards the body.

The Coroner: A person might have escaped before you arrived?

PC Lamb: That is quite possible. I should think he got away before I got there, and not afterward.

There really is no great mystery. The Killer bolts into the back of the yard when Diemschutz turns into the gate, once all the commotion starts he calmly walks out to join in, sauntering off before Lamb arrives, he could even have run off to 'look for a policeman' & nobody would be any the wiser.

Liz Stride could easily be a Ripper attack gone wrong. And of course she could just as easily have been killed by cheated client. There really isn't a single shred of evidence to prove one or the other....just a lot of 'guestimates' really.

[Hunter]

Thinking about Liz

Sorry we got off subject folks- Just reminiscing I guess.

Well... did Jack the Ripper kill Elizabeth Stride?

When I walk through a cemetery I wonder about the people and their lives. I never could accept someone living in the same world that we now do and being forgotten.

I imagine Liz in her final moments looking at her suitor-hoping for a kind word. He may have placed his fingers behind the rose and fern adorning her lapel and told her how nice she looked with them. He might have placed them there. She clutches the cachous as if self conscious about her missing teeth. Teeth that were likely knocked out in a brawl than by a deck hand on the "Princess Alice". Its late and has been raining. The dampness is cold. The night hasn't gone as she'd planned and her doss money is spent. She hasn't even had enough to drink to numb the damp chill... but he reassures her- maybe even kisses her. She reluctantly covers her face and smiles. There's been little love in her life in recent years. Michael Kidney may have offered some security at times, but they usually just shared a drink and a bed. They had both come down the same road and it had left them hardened and distant. Her companion may be temporary, but everyone in her life has been. She's used to it. She sees in him only hope for the moment... but the moment is enough. He steps behind her and fondles her. She knows the routine- at least she thought. He grabs her shoulders tightly and pulls her to the ground. Grasping the bow of her scarf with his left hand, he slashes her throat with his right. She lays on her side drawing her knees in a last act of defense. Her killer vanishes in the night. She lives long enough to know what has happened but unable to cry. Death passes in silence. And this gains her immortality... and we're left here to speculate. It took her death for someone to care.

I do not know who caused her death... maybe someday we will... but I do know she once lived. Right now I guess that will have to do.

Best Wishes and Happy New Year,
Hunter

"Live each day as if it were your last; for one day you will surely be right"

[corey123]

Hello Mike and Sox,

Mike,

I have read a bit of your very interesting thread about the timeings on Lizs murder.
I do believe Louis checked his time by the clocktower and that watches weren't all that commen in 1888, that many citizens didnt have any. But the police did and it fits with Louis statement.

The time the shouts were hard by Mortimer, Marshall, and Brown which was just after one.

the alarm rased at IWEC on the spot at one.

And louis finds the body at 12:58.

It all fits.

Sox,

I dont believe there was evidence pointing to asphixiation.

I always thought the scarf pulled tight as due to the killer pulling her(by the scarf) into the yard and reaching around her neck to slice her throat(which is why the cut is so much more shallow and not fully around the neck, giving the impression that the cut was made by a short knife) and then lays her on her side. Upon waiting for her to bleed dry(which is slow compared to the rest due to PARTIAL severance of the carotid atery)and was interupted in the process by either Louis or a member of the socialist party going on inside.

Happy new years on the time.

Happy new years to Mike,Lynn,David,Phil, and everyone else.

Have a happy year and may God bless you all

[corey123]

Hunter,

That is a very neat and very sad senerio that may have happened. I have always thought of it to be a "Blitz" attack and that Liz never saw her killer.

My senerio is less dramatic and not as touching but I see how we must remember, those are people in those graves.

[lynn cates]

reenactment

Hello Corey and Hunter. The quasi-wrestling match scenario, with "Jack" grabbing Liz by the shoulders and forcing her down, is quite interesting. But does it do justice to the cachous?

"Ah! But she was clutching them in mortal fear!"

Very well. Clutching them--how?

"Well, they were in her fist as she fought off Jack."

Sounds plausible, right? Except, they were between her thumb and forefinger.

Here's an experiment you can do if you're young and agile. Take 6-8 matches and light them and blow them out. When properly extinguished, clip the burned heads off the stems and collect them. (Astonishingly, these will be about the same size, weight and even appearance as real cachous--to say nothing of the taste--[they have a rather disgusting taste!].)

Next, take about a quarter of a tissue--Kleenex, if you like--and enfold the burned out match tips. Place this "packet" between left thumb and forefinger.

Now, in a gym (or similar setting), have a peer go through "Jack's" motions with you--including the seizure, the alleged shoulder grabbing, the forcing to the ground, the slitting of the throat--whilst you hold the packet between thumb and forefinger. (You might even throw in a paper knife for effect, but take care to avoid a painful paper cut.)

Question. Where did the packet go?

Incidentally, it will be difficult to reconstruct this entirely as (I feel rather confident) the Liz actor may make supererogatory efforts to retain the cachous. In reality, however, it is highly unlikely that someone undergoing such a "tussle" would place "packet retention" as her primary objective.

The best.
LC