Did jack kill liz stride?

[c.d.]

It matters a great deal of course.....because it would be a coincidence that a 'domestic' just happened to have happened in the darkest spot in the yard. Rather - the darkest spot in the yard suggests it was deliberately chosen - in advance. Not spur of the moment rage against a lover prostituting herself i.e. Kidney.

'Does ask questions about Schwartz's testimony though. Time wrong?

Just wondering about the Lipski thing too....wonder if someone can help me out.

a) My understanding is Schwartz hadn't been in the country very long - would he have even known about the Lipski murder case?

b) Schwartz didn't speak English. Would he have been able to understand a Cockney accent? I have a French friend who has been in the country about 6 years now and he really struggles to understand Scouse/Brummie/Cockney - and my accent (Sunderland)? What do you reckon? Any views on whether Lipski on a cockney accent would have been easy on the ear for a non English speaking Hungarian?

c) Would the assailant have known Schwarz was Jewish....from a distance?

Any consensus been reached on these?

Hi Mac,

Good question as to whether Schwartz knew about the Lipski case.

My take on it would be this -- If indeed the BS man did yell "Lipski", I would have to believe that it was directed at Schwartz and was accompanied by a look of intimidation and probably a hand gesture as if to say "hey, what are you looking at." Perhaps he told Abberline that it sounded like (fill in the blank). Abberline, taking note of Schwartz's appearance and the circumstances concluded that it was in all probability it was "Lipski." He repeats the word several times to Schwartz who says yes that it what I heard. It might be a case of leading the witness but how many words would fit the circumstances that sounded like Lipski?

c.d.

[harry]

There is information of one person, that on entering the yard after exiting the club,he had to,because of the darkness,feel his way along the wall.
Brown,whose evidence concerned Fairclough St,said the lighting there was very poor,and he was unable because of the light,to give much of a description of the couple he saw.Light would have been no better in Berner street,and descriptions no easier to note.As has been said,how could BS have been aware of a Jewish presence,so why shout Lipski?Did he in fact shout it?.BS seems to have been preoccupied with Stride,not much chance to notice anything else.
I wonder, if it had been mentioned a man chose to urinate just inside the gate,whether there would have been the same doubt him doing so.
No doubt that as soon as the occupants in the yard realised something unusual was taking place,lights would have gone on and doors and windows opened,so that later arrivals would have observed a difference.
Also,do not forget the other person present.His appearance there may not have been pure coincidence.

[caz]

The actual yard was far more inhabited than the pathway would have been, much better lighted, and further from an exit.

And that is why I speculated that if Liz had just been accosted by some oaf as he was making his way down Berner St, she had the option of going into that yard to wait, in what should have been relative safety, until she thought she was well and truly shot of him. I can't see any good reason why she would choose to hang around in the darkest part of that passageway in the wake of being accosted, no matter who the man was. It would make more sense to me if she was forced there against her will, or was making her way back from the yard alone, or was with a different man by then who appeared a lot more friendly.

In the case of Stride because it was a small knife and not that sharp she only received small wound to the throat.

Here we go again - the small dull murder weapon trick.

It doesn't cut it, Trevor, and that's the point. It's no mean trick to cut the edge of a silk scarf with a small blade that isn't that sharp. But that's what happened when the killer's knife went - just the once - through neck and scarf like butter.

Serious question: do you think Stride's killer knew (or cared) whether his blunt little instrument had inflicted a wound that would silence her for good? Was the light good enough to tell? If not, wasn't he taking a bit of a risk, cutting just the once before leaving, if it was his first murder attempt and for all he knew she could have survived long enough to identify him?

Love,

Caz
X

[Chris]

a) My understanding is Schwartz hadn't been in the country very long - would he have even known about the Lipski murder case?

As far as I know, there's no direct evidence as to how long Israel Schwartz had been in the country.

It has sometimes been assumed that he had arrived recently because he didn't speak English. But the (in my view) most likely Israel Schwartz who has been identified in other records never spoke anything but Yiddish, according to family information, though he lived in the East End until his death in 1936. We know that that Israel came to England after about 1885.

[Hunter]

You are wrong in relation to both the murders they were not killed in that way. They had their throats cut whilst standing up. The killer was behind them holding their face and mouth. He then inserted the knife and drew it across. In the case of Stride because it was a small knife and not that sharp she only received small wound to the throat. Eddowes was killed with a long very sharp knife.

If there is anything more i can help you understand then please free to contact me

Yes, what evidence do you have that these women's throats were cut while/whilst they were standing up?

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, what evidence do you have that these women's throats were cut while/whilst they were standing up?

And what evidence do you have to suggest otherwise ?

[Trevor Marriott]

And that is why I speculated that if Liz had just been accosted by some oaf as he was making his way down Berner St, she had the option of going into that yard to wait, in what should have been relative safety, until she thought she was well and truly shot of him. I can't see any good reason why she would choose to hang around in the darkest part of that passageway in the wake of being accosted, no matter who the man was. It would make more sense to me if she was forced there against her will, or was making her way back from the yard alone, or was with a different man by then who appeared a lot more friendly.



Here we go again - the small dull murder weapon trick.

It doesn't cut it, Trevor, and that's the point. It's no mean trick to cut the edge of a silk scarf with a small blade that isn't that sharp. But that's what happened when the killer's knife went - just the once - through neck and scarf like butter.

Serious question: do you think Stride's killer knew (or cared) whether his blunt little instrument had inflicted a wound that would silence her for good? Was the light good enough to tell? If not, wasn't he taking a bit of a risk, cutting just the once before leaving, if it was his first murder attempt and for all he knew she could have survived long enough to identify him?

Love,

Caz
X

But there are different degrees a knife can be sharpened to depending on how it is done. A small knife with a reasonably sharp blade will cut a throat but would not be long enough to almost take the head off.

The experts of the day gave their opinions they had first hand experience with the body. Is it right for you and others to question that when there is clearly corroboration to what they stated.

[c.d.]

It is true that they were doctors and it is true that they examined the body but I am not sure that that qualifies them as "experts."

c.d.

[GregBaron]

...Sliced......

Just speculating you argumentative folks but it seems if JTR cut the throats from behind blood would have shot all over his hands and arms and outward perhaps some feet away from the body. Getting two separate deep slices this way would seem even more problematic. Perhaps he did the first one from behind then the second on the ground? It seems more likely to me that he throttled the woman with both hands to unconsciousness then laid them down quietly before standing over them and savagely making the two cuts which would allow for easier blood avoidance and deeper penetration. The splatter up the fence on Hanbury also seems to suggest this. Not sure how he would get behind all the women either but that's another thread at another time....The Stride murder was obviously a bit different and hence all the arguments........don't know if she showed evidence of throttling.....?

Greg

[Trevor Marriott]

It is true that they were doctors and it is true that they examined the body but I am not sure that that qualifies them as "experts."

c.d.

I think it gives them an edge over the marjority of posters on here

[c.d.]

I think it gives them an edge over the marjority of posters on here

I think the most prudent course would be to give their opinions a great deal of weight but not to take them as gospel.

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

I think the most prudent course would be to give their opinions a great deal of weight but not to take them as gospel.

c.d.

Well I am inclined to belive them in preference to you and other posters on here even in they are only opinions. I have seen and read some opinions by posters on various issues on here.

[Hunter]

Trevor,

If you are inclined to believe the contemporary doctors opinions ( and I am inclined so too) then why do you say that these women's throats were cut while standing when none of the medicos in any of these murders suggest such. The closest to your assumtion is Blackwell's theory that Stride may have been cut while she was falling. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You make assertions without backing them up with contemporary evidence and when called on that you ask what proof someone else had against it. When you make assertions, show the evidence like the rest of us researchers do. All of the canonicals were believed by every single contemporary expert to have had their throats cut while prone because there was no blood on their shoulders or chest.

You can't even comprehend Dr. Phillips' testimony in regard to Annie Chapman that shows without a doubt that he noticed her uterus missing at the crime scene , thus debunking your ridiculous theory about the organs being removed elsewhere.

I offer the challenge, again, right now, that if there is anyone on these boards that agree with Trevor Marriott's theory about the organs being removed by someone other than their killer, I personally am happy to debate them Anywhere on that subject. Its time to put all of this crap to rest once and for all.

[Tom_Wescott]

The doctors

Trevor,

Are you aware that you're the new Perry Mason?

Regarding the doctors, I apparently must reiterate that there was and is no medical evidence to suggest a short knife and as for Trevor stating they called the knife "dull", that is just absolute stupidity. The doctors were very clear that Stride was killed with a sharp knife.

Let me know when the Trevor show is over. We'll clean up the mess and maybe get a good worthwhile discussion going.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Mac,

Good question as to whether Schwartz knew about the Lipski case.

My take on it would be this -- If indeed the BS man did yell "Lipski", I would have to believe that it was directed at Schwartz and was accompanied by a look of intimidation and probably a hand gesture as if to say "hey, what are you looking at." Perhaps he told Abberline that it sounded like (fill in the blank). Abberline, taking note of Schwartz's appearance and the circumstances concluded that it was in all probability it was "Lipski." He repeats the word several times to Schwartz who says yes that it what I heard. It might be a case of leading the witness but how many words would fit the circumstances that sounded like Lipski?

c.d.

Yeah...just a bit curious about this....because presumably Lipski would be pronounced differently in Yiddish/Magyar whatever than English.....

But.....Chris has said it's not clear how long he had been in the country....so that could well clear it up.....where he'd been in the country a while....his ears would have adjusted accordingly.

Hang on a minute here.....didn't Schwartz have an interpretor? Suggests not in the country a great deal of time......I wonder how Lipski would sound in a Cockney accent to a Hungarian not well versed in a cockney accent?

Still not sure how the assailant would have known Schwartz was Jewish from a distance? Any ideas?