Did jack kill liz stride?

[GregBaron]

Where did Liz lie.........?

I know this is dumb or daft as you Brits might say but I don't quite understand the physical layout of the Berner street affair. I know there are drawings and photos but they seem to disagree. I know there is a large rounded off opening which I assume the horseman trudged through. Was Stride laying off to the right in this enclosed entranceway which I think was 20 feet long or was she beyond the entranceway and just off to the right side? Also, is the Jewish club fronting the street directly adjacent to this opening or is it further back in the yard? Finally, if the club starts at the street how far back did it go? Did it extend beyond the horse entranceway? I think if I got a better visualization it might help me reconcile the various details; ie; BS man, grapes, one light on, singing, open door & windows, street witnesses etc....

Thanks, Greg

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Greg! I recommend taking a look at the illustrations available here under 'Photo Archives' to your left. They don't disagree too much. The Berner Street club was a three story building facing Berner Street. Dutfield's Yard was the pathway that ran between this house and 44 Berner Street where Matthew Packer lived. The tall wooden gates were 4'6" in length each, making the entrance way 9'2". The pathway itself was almost 10' wide. If you were walking down Berner Street from Commercial Road, you'd turn right off the pavement to enter through the gates and would find yourself in a very dark pathway. Standing in the gateway, Stride's feet would be four feet in front of you and to your right. Her head was about halfway between the gate and the steps that led into the clubhouse kitchen where Mrs. Diemshitz (first name Sarah) and her servant girl, Mila, were making coffee and goodies. I hope this helps.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. There were no grapes.

[Fleetwood Mac]

According to Schwartz, Stride was approached and then thrown to the ground by a drunken Broad Shoulders, in response to which she screamed, “but not very loudly.” The question therefore arises as to why, when an unknown assailant was prowling the immediate locality and butchering women not too dissimilar to herself, Stride responded with no more than token resistance in the face of what might for all she knew have been the initial stage of yet another of these murders? [/FONT]

Hi Garry.....

This assumes the big picture was on her mind.

There are a whole host of possible explanations. One being that she was concentrating on maintaining her balance.

I suppose we'd need to understand exactly what happened.....who approached whom.....the nature of the disagreement etc. Could have been someone from the club with no more malicious intent than to move her on - forcefully.

I'd conclude that there is insuffient known about the incident to draw conclusions (at least probable ones).

On the face of it, this makes little sense. One would assume that, on recognizing the potential dangerousness of her situation, Stride would have screamed for all she was worth.

Perhaps she didn't perceive too much danger - but this doesn't mean she knew her assailant - it may have been the result of being in the street - and it follows thus feeling reasonably secure in that people would have been passing by within minutes.

Another curious element of the Stride case concerns the fact that, other than the throat incision, her body exhibited no indication of recent violence. Since her clothing betrayed no sign of damage as the result of a physical struggle, it would be reasonable to conclude that she wasn’t dragged into Dutfield’s Yard against her will.

Sounds reasonable.

To my mind, the central problem with the Berner Street crime is the uncritical acceptance of the notion that the Ripper was interrupted by the arrival of Louis Diemschutz and thus prevented from inflicting his customary abdominal mutilations. But where is the evidence for such an assumption?

No evidence whatsoever. I'd imagine though that some people go with the scenario that it ws improbable that two killers were operating around the same time and around the same place - seems reasonable to me - and that Jack was in it for more than slitting someone's throat - seems reasonable to me - and therefore there's a good chance he was disturbed - seems reasonable to me - not necessarily by Deimschutz.

In reality, the evidence points in an altogether different direction. A couple of minutes after Stride’s body was discovered, for example, Mrs Diemschutz noted that the rivulet of blood that had escaped from the throat wound had already trickled to the top of the yard and was dripping into the grate. This, so I am reliably informed, was all but medically impossible within the prescribed timeframe. Ten or so minutes later, coagulated blood was discovered under and close to Stride’s body. Again, highly unlikely given an estimated time of death of one o’clock.

Wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that Deimschutz got the time wrong or that it wasn't Deimschutz who disturbed Jack.

earlier time of death comes the near-certainty that Broad Shoulders was the killer.

Assuming Schwartz got his time right. Easy mistake to make.....unless he walked that route every night at that time....sort of like going to work. But I'm not convinced that the time of an incident can be recalled with certainty without something to act as prompt.

P.S. If the issue was say a club member trying to move her on......then she would have known she wasn't in danger and so screamed accordingly. It really all depends on the nature of the disagreement. And your case seems to rest on the scream - there are a number of possible explanations for this.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Greg! I recommend taking a look at the illustrations available here under 'Photo Archives' to your left. They don't disagree too much. The Berner Street club was a three story building facing Berner Street. Dutfield's Yard was the pathway that ran between this house and 44 Berner Street where Matthew Packer lived. The tall wooden gates were 4'6" in length each, making the entrance way 9'2". The pathway itself was almost 10' wide. If you were walking down Berner Street from Commercial Road, you'd turn right off the pavement to enter through the gates and would find yourself in a very dark pathway. Standing in the gateway, Stride's feet would be four feet in front of you and to your right. Her head was about halfway between the gate and the steps that led into the clubhouse kitchen where Mrs. Diemshitz (first name Sarah) and her servant girl, Mila, were making coffee and goodies. I hope this helps.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. There were no grapes.

The murder location couldnt have been the darkest part surely as she was nearer to the street than the other part of the yard. There would have been some form of street lighting in Berner St it was not totally pitch black.

It has been suggested that her killer was JTR and he took her to that exact location because it was the darkest spot. Now it suddenly becomes " A very dark area" this makes a big difference would you not agree ?

Cue- posters with expert knowledge of the street lighting and lamp locations at the time.

[c.d.]

Regarding all this talk of privvies, I have to agree with Trevor that since there's literally zero evidence to indicate Stride had used or intended to use the privvy, there's really very little to discuss. But short of that, Caz knows more about the Stride murder and probably the Ripper murders altogether than 90% of those who post or write on the subject.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott[/QUOTE]

Maybe I am missing something here but exactly what evidence would support that?

c.d.

[The Grave Maurice]

The tall wooden gates were 4'6" in length each, making the entrance way 9'2".

Wouldn't that be 9'?

[harry]

Thanks for your kind comments Tom,and I do think I can answer the above question for you.There was of course a two inch gap where the gates met.If all the answers were so simple.
A little insight into prostitutes.I once asked one why she did it,and her answer was,"If it wasn't meant to be shared,why was it split in two".Such simple logic might explain everything.

[Hunter]

And she still gets to keep it anyway

[caz]

Regarding all this talk of privvies, I have to agree with Trevor that since there's literally zero evidence to indicate Stride had used or intended to use the privvy, there's really very little to discuss. But short of that, Caz knows more about the Stride murder and probably the Ripper murders altogether than 90% of those who post or write on the subject.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Maybe I am missing something here but exactly what evidence would support that?

c.d.

I agree, c.d. There is no evidence for any of the above. And don't worry, I don't offend easily.

My 'comfort break' speculation was just that, and nothing to get anyone's panties in a bunch over.

But I would not have speculated at all if there was any evidence for what Liz and her killer were doing, and where, between Schwartz legging it (reportedly) and the instant when, in one fell swoop, this woman was so rudely and abruptly sent from this world to the next, without so much as a "by your leave".

Anyone who has ever sought to fill that gap (whether it lasted ten seconds or ten minutes - and even that has to remain largely a matter of informed guesswork) has used pure unadulterated dollops of speculation. And some have been quite dogmatic about it. At least I was offering only food for thought and made that quite clear.

But I see that Harry has set the tone. Women like Liz clearly only ever had "entrances" for men, not "exits" for themselves. Perish the thought.

Love,

Caz
X

[Hunter]

The murder location couldnt have been the darkest part surely as she was nearer to the street than the other part of the yard. There would have been some form of street lighting in Berner St it was not totally pitch black.
It has been suggested that her killer was JTR and he took her to that exact location because it was the darkest spot. Now it suddenly becomes " A very dark area" this makes a big difference would you not agree ?
Cue- posters with expert knowledge of the street lighting and lamp locations at the time.

Here's PC Lamb's testimony about the lighting-

The Foreman: Was there light sufficient to enable you to see, as you were going down Berner-street, whether any person was running away from No. 40?
Lamb- It was rather dark, but I think there was light enough for that, though the person would be somewhat indistinct from Commercial-road.
The Foreman: Some of the papers state that Berner-street is badly lighted; but there are six lamps within 700 feet, and I do not think that is very bad.
The Coroner: The parish plan shows that there are four lamps within 350 feet, from Commercial-road to Fairclough-street.
Witness: There are three, if not four, lamps in Berner-street between Commercial- road and Fairclough-street. Berner-street is about as well lighted as other side streets. Most of them are rather dark, but more lamps have been erected lately.
The Coroner: I do not think that London altogether is as well lighted as some capitals are.
Witness: There are no public-house lights in Berner-street. I was engaged in the yard and at the mortuary all the night afterwards.

The main point to consider here is unless a light was directly in front of the entrance to the yard, it wouldn't have illuminated it. The entrance was 9' 2" across... very narrow with high buildings on each side. There were no lights in the yard itself and the club door and tenement windows opposite were set farther back in the yard.

PC Lamb again-
Arriving at the gateway of No. 40 I observed something dark lying on the ground on the right-hand side. I turned my light on, when I found that the object was a woman, with her throat cut and apparently dead. I sent the other constable for the nearest doctor, and a young man who was standing by I despatched to the police station to inform the inspector what had occurred.

Testimony of Morris Eagle-
[Coroner] Did you pass in the middle of the gateway?
Eagle- I think so. The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide. I naturally walked on the right side, that being the side on which the club door was.
[Coroner] Do you think you are able to say that the deceased was not lying there then?
Eagle- I do not know, I am sure, because it was rather dark. There was a light from the upper part of the club, but that would not throw any illumination upon the ground. It was dark near the gates.
[Coroner] You have formed no opinion, I take it, then, as to whether there was anything there?
Eagle- No.

I could present more proof that the front of the yard was dark, but this post is long enough. Hope it puts this to rest.

[GregBaron]

Physical location...........

Thanks Tom and others for the logistical info. I made the rookie mistake of posting before examining the thread. The thread has some great stuff on the physical location. Thanks to whomever built those graphical representations. I feel like I know where Liz was now but am only still a bit fuzzy on the closest window.....which one had a light on and was said window or door along the gate wall near Liz or around the corner? A sketch shows the window and doors only a few feet on the same side so I'll go with that until told otherwise. My current feeling due to some good work by others is that Liz wasn't in the canon..............!

Greg

[c.d.]

I think I need to clarify my previous post. What I meant was how could we possibly know whether Liz intended to use the privy or whether she actually used it? Would the police have looked into the hole and said "yep, that's Liz's pee all right?" Certainly it is mere speculation but it could help explain some things like the appearance of being caught off guard if she was attacked upon exiting the privy.

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

I think I need to clarify my previous post. What I meant was how could we possibly know whether Liz intended to use the privy or whether she actually used it? Would the police have looked into the hole and said "yep, that's Liz's pee all right?" Certainly it is mere speculation but it could help explain some things like the appearance of being caught off guard if she was attacked upon exiting the privy.

c.d.

Do you not know when to quit ?

[c.d.]

Do you not know when to quit ?

Yes, I do know when to quit. That would be when someone provides a logical rebuttal of what I stated as opposed to an obnoxious statement from a pompous ***hole.

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

Here's PC Lamb's testimony about the lighting-

The Foreman: Was there light sufficient to enable you to see, as you were going down Berner-street, whether any person was running away from No. 40?
Lamb- It was rather dark, but I think there was light enough for that, though the person would be somewhat indistinct from Commercial-road.
The Foreman: Some of the papers state that Berner-street is badly lighted; but there are six lamps within 700 feet, and I do not think that is very bad.
The Coroner: The parish plan shows that there are four lamps within 350 feet, from Commercial-road to Fairclough-street.
Witness: There are three, if not four, lamps in Berner-street between Commercial- road and Fairclough-street. Berner-street is about as well lighted as other side streets. Most of them are rather dark, but more lamps have been erected lately.
The Coroner: I do not think that London altogether is as well lighted as some capitals are.
Witness: There are no public-house lights in Berner-street. I was engaged in the yard and at the mortuary all the night afterwards.

The main point to consider here is unless a light was directly in front of the entrance to the yard, it wouldn't have illuminated it. The entrance was 9' 2" across... very narrow with high buildings on each side. There were no lights in the yard itself and the club door and tenement windows opposite were set farther back in the yard.

PC Lamb again-
Arriving at the gateway of No. 40 I observed something dark lying on the ground on the right-hand side. I turned my light on, when I found that the object was a woman, with her throat cut and apparently dead. I sent the other constable for the nearest doctor, and a young man who was standing by I despatched to the police station to inform the inspector what had occurred.

Testimony of Morris Eagle-
[Coroner] Did you pass in the middle of the gateway?
Eagle- I think so. The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide. I naturally walked on the right side, that being the side on which the club door was.
[Coroner] Do you think you are able to say that the deceased was not lying there then?
Eagle- I do not know, I am sure, because it was rather dark. There was a light from the upper part of the club, but that would not throw any illumination upon the ground. It was dark near the gates.
[Coroner] You have formed no opinion, I take it, then, as to whether there was anything there?
Eagle- No.

I could present more proof that the front of the yard was dark, but this post is long enough. Hope it puts this to rest.

Well it only puts it to rest in as much each and everyone of us can only speculate about exactly how dark it was or how much light there was. One thing is for sure it wasnt pitch black where she was found and wasnt pitch black outside in the street.

Those who subscribe to her being a JTR victim will no doubt side with it being pitch black others will subscribe to the beleif that there had to be a certain amount of light in both areas.

Even in half light if you are aware of something lying on the floor in order to see what it excatly is and you are in posession of a torch you are going to illuminate the torch to see in more detail.