Did jack kill liz stride?

[Garry Wroe]

Yes, it most certainly could have been a domestic. But we have Swanson saying that her background was checked and people interviewed and the police could find no one with a motive. Also, if it was a domestic, why didn't anyone hear any arguing? Why wasn't Liz slapped around first? As Hunter stated, someone wanted her dead very quickly. I just don't see it as a domestic.

I would regard it as unlikely, CD, that Citizen X would kill Stride and then volunteer information under police questioning that might lead to his detection. I also suspect that, much like many modern students of the case, Swanson's men were inclined to view the Stride murder as Ripper-related. Under such circumstances, it is more than possible that clues were missed because they related to a one-off event rather than an ongoing series of murders. If so, it wouldn't be the first time that the wood has been obscured by the trees.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[c.d.]

Hi Garry,

I am a little unclear on your position. Am I right that you believe that the BS man was her killer and that it was a domestic? If so, why would Liz go off with him after being assaulted as you put it? If it was a domestic, I would have to believe that she would have some inkling as to what the issue was. Why not discuss things on the street as opposed to going off into the yard? Can she really believe that something postive will result from her being alone with the man who just threw her to the ground and threatened a passerby?

I don't think that her killer (if it were a domestic) would divulge things to the police but according to Swanson they questioned a number of people. You would think that at least one of her friends would have know about a jealous lover in her life or somebody that might have some reason to hurt her.

c.d.

[Fleetwood Mac]

To my mind, CD, the Stride murder bears all the hallmarks of a 'domestic'. The 'quiet scream' suggests that Stride knew her killer.

Garry Wroe.

Out of curiosity Garry.....what is the reasoning underpinning quiet scream = knew killer?

[harry]

What length of conversation took place?It appears the meeting of Stride and BS occured only a few seconds before Schwartz drew level and crossed the street.Who spoke first is unknown.What was said is unknown.At what stage the screams occured is not clear.There wasn't much time for Schwartz to digest anything,or for anything to happen, before he was off and running,and his back towards anything that was happening at the gates.Together with his supposedly near total recall of what BS and Pipeman looked like and wore,we are faced with another incredible feat of memory.
I detect in his case,more than a little prompting.

[Fleetwood Mac]

What length of conversation took place?It appears the meeting of Stride and BS occured only a few seconds before Schwartz drew level and crossed the street.Who spoke first is unknown.What was said is unknown.At what stage the screams occured is not clear.There wasn't much time for Schwartz to digest anything,or for anything to happen, before he was off and running,and his back towards anything that was happening at the gates.Together with his supposedly near total recall of what BS and Pipeman looked like and wore,we are faced with another incredible feat of memory.
I detect in his case,more than a little prompting.

Not necessarily Harry. When in danger your senses are heightened. Not unreasonable to believe Schwartz was fully focused for 10 seconds or so - enough time to imprint decent descriptions on your memory.

[harry]

Fleetwood,
Senses can also be affected by fear,and a person become confused.The first priority of Scwhartz seems to be to get clear as quickly as possible,this no doubt heightened by the appearance of pipeman,so I think his thoughts would have been on the danger they threatened,not on their appearance.
I cannot imagine a quiet scream,or the circumstances that might cause such.As Schwartz says he heard raised voices as he departed,I assume one of those would have been Stride's,perhaps berating BS.If so I would expect her to be also on her guard in his presence,and not an easy target to further subdue.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood,
Senses can also be affected by fear,and a person become confused.The first priority of Scwhartz seems to be to get clear as quickly as possible,this no doubt heightened by the appearance of pipeman,so I think his thoughts would have been on the danger they threatened,not on their appearance.
I cannot imagine a quiet scream,or the circumstances that might cause such.As Schwartz says he heard raised voices as he departed,I assume one of those would have been Stride's,perhaps berating BS.If so I would expect her to be also on her guard in his presence,and not an easy target to further subdue.

Well...he would have had to have assessed the situation in order to conclude that he was in danger...and thereby to decide to 'get clear as quickly as possible'. And this would include making a judgement call based partially on the appearance of those men.

I don't personally imagine JTR causing a commotion - the alternative being far less risky - I imagine you'd agree. But then that's me using reason - when in fact JTR may not have been a particularly reasonable bloke - instinct may have been more of a guiding factor for him.

I think you could come up with plausible theories either way.

But what is most informative to me is that it is more probable than not that there weren't two knife-wielding killers operating in the same area at roughly the same time.

[Hunter]

But what is most informative to me is that it is more probable than not that there weren't two knife-wielding killers operating in the same area at roughly the same time.

Exactly, Fleetwood.
And despite the lack of mutilation, the uncertainty of the type of knife, the BS man story of Schwartz... that one thing... another protitute killed with her throat cut, shortly after this, when murders of this magnitude were not common, even in the crime ridden East End, is the key that opens the door to suspecting the same killer.

In all fairness to the police, whom I think did a commendable job in the most difficult of circumstances, I must disagree with Gary on his proposition that they were predisposed to place Stride as a Ripper victim. From the inquest testimony to the police reports; to the house to house inquiries that were conducted in the area, the police, as a matter of routine, treated each of these murders individually and conducted their investigations accordingly... Even Barnett, after Kelly's murder, was grilled by police for four hours... this after five other women had been brutally murdered before her.

The fact that after all of this, not a single individual was linked to even one of the murders... not one... does not, to me, suggest an inefficiency of the police's part... but rather the inevitable pattern of a serial killer whose motive - the key to all murder investigations - was unclear; the circumstances of each murder, also unclear... but the suddeness and savagery of the attacks are certain; and that all of the victims were of the same class, killed in a short timeframe, in the same area and left for all the world to see.

Can we even imgaine the scene that faced Dr. Barnardo, when he walked into the lodging house at No. 32 and looked around at the faces of those "unfortunate" women huddled around the fireplace in that dingy kitchen?... sensing their desparation and gazing at eyes fixed with fear... forlorned bodies shivering in horror and the hopelessness that derides from an uncertain tommorow. Elizabeth Stride was in that room and three days later she was lying in a muddy yard with her throat cut, while people- just feet away, were merrily singing... Can we see that? or are we too damned analytical... too busy separating the whole into parts to be rearrainged to fit some notion that pleases ourselves... something that is more logical perhaps, than the chaos and disorder that is usually the truth... but harder to swallow... because something that is illogical and irrational makes us uncomfortable.

Before we seek to interpret anything historical, it would benefit us all to place ourselves in their shoes for a while - the police, the citizens and even the victims... Otherwise we are just running barefoot and sooner or later we'll step on a nail.

[corey123]

Hunter,

That was a very touching piece. A great summing up of the police inquires and the victims last moments.

Fleetwood,

I am going to have to agree with Harry on the point of Schwartz being very tuined to the descriptioned than being concerned about escaping. Fear can do odd things to you. Have you ever been so afraid you ran faster than you felt you ever ran before???

[c.d.]

Even if the police were predisposed to consider Stride as a Ripper victim, they didn't know who the Ripper was. It's not like they knew the Ripper was Joe Smith so therefore anybody other than Joe Smith was not suspicious and not worth investigating. They might not have pursued the domestic angle as much given their mindset but I don't see them completely abandoning basic police procedures as a result.

c.d.

[Fleetwood Mac]

And despite the lack of mutilation, the uncertainty of the type of knife, the BS man story of Schwartz... that one thing... another protitute killed with her throat cut, shortly after this, when murders of this magnitude were not common, even in the crime ridden East End, is the key that opens the door to suspecting the same killer.

Hunter - I don't think it would be possible for all of the killings to exhibit the same traits (of the killer). It goes without saying that people adjust to their circumstances and what's going on around them. JTR wasn't in control of everything going on around him - from the actions of the women - to the surroundings where they met. Were he to wait for everything to fall into place exactly as he wanted it - then he would have been waiting forever. He certainly would have had to adjust to the situation which would account for difference in the killings. Even were he to have these women lying on a table blindfolded - completely at his mercy - there would still be differences in the killings - so when you factor in killing on the streets with not a great deal of time and opportunity (it seems to me he would have had to have taken serious risks to satisfy his urge - otherwise he would have been waiting forever) - and factor in the environment e.g. position of buildings etc - it is probable there would be marked differences - though some core similarities.

[c.d.]

Hi Mac,

Your point is well taken especially since we are only comparing four outdoor murders. That is a very small database. If, on the other hand, there were twenty murders virtually all alike, and we were presented with a murder which differed from those twenty, I would be more inclined to view it as a different hand.

c.d.

[corey123]

hi c.d,

I agree.

[Garry Wroe]

Out of curiosity Garry.....what is the reasoning underpinning quiet scream = knew killer?

Please see below, FM.

I am a little unclear on your position. Am I right that you believe that the BS man was her killer and that it was a domestic? If so, why would Liz go off with him after being assaulted as you put it?

According to Schwartz, Stride was approached and then thrown to the ground by a drunken Broad Shoulders, in response to which she screamed, “but not very loudly.” The question therefore arises as to why, when an unknown assailant was prowling the immediate locality and butchering women not too dissimilar to herself, Stride responded with no more than token resistance in the face of what might for all she knew have been the initial stage of yet another of these murders?

On the face of it, this makes little sense. One would assume that, on recognizing the potential dangerousness of her situation, Stride would have screamed for all she was worth. The chances are that this would have not only frightened off her assailant, but also attracted policemen from all directions. Yet Stride did next to nothing from the perspective of self-preservation.

Another curious element of the Stride case concerns the fact that, other than the throat incision, her body exhibited no indication of recent violence. Since her clothing betrayed no sign of damage as the result of a physical struggle, it would be reasonable to conclude that she wasn’t dragged into Dutfield’s Yard against her will.

To my mind, the central problem with the Berner Street crime is the uncritical acceptance of the notion that the Ripper was interrupted by the arrival of Louis Diemschutz and thus prevented from inflicting his customary abdominal mutilations. But where is the evidence for such an assumption?

In reality, the evidence points in an altogether different direction. A couple of minutes after Stride’s body was discovered, for example, Mrs Diemschutz noted that the rivulet of blood that had escaped from the throat wound had already trickled to the top of the yard and was dripping into the grate. This, so I am reliably informed, was all but medically impossible within the prescribed timeframe. Ten or so minutes later, coagulated blood was discovered under and close to Stride’s body. Again, highly unlikely given an estimated time of death of one o’clock.

On this basis, the time of death was almost certainly significantly earlier than is commonly supposed – at least ten, possibly even fifteen minutes earlier if the haematic evidence may be taken as a reliable indicator. And with an earlier time of death comes the near-certainty that Broad Shoulders was the killer. But since he wasn’t interrupted by Louis Diemschutz, and nor, so it would appear, by anyone else, he was not an evisceration murderer and therefore wasn’t Jack the Ripper.

Returning to the preamble of this crime, Stride’s disinclination to make a determined cry for help points unerringly to the conclusion that Broad Shoulders was known to her. But theirs was no casual acquaintanceship. The suppressed scream indicates a much closer association. Had Broad Shoulders been a stranger, Stride would have screamed resolutely and without hesitation.

This was a situation not dissimilar to a master beating his dog. Although the dog has the capacity to inflict severe damage upon its master, it doesn’t retaliate. Instead, it trembles with fear, takes the beating, and lets out an occasional whimper. Within psychology this is a state known as learned helplessness, and it perfectly encapsulates the behaviours of both Stride and Broad Shoulders as witnessed by Schwartz. Much like our maltreated dog, Stride could have established control over the situation but remained passive. Her ‘quiet screams’ were merely symbolic – the equivalent of the dog’s whimpering. This was the late-Victorian East End, and here, when a woman transgressed, she was expected to take her punishment without complaint. As an example of such, witness the remarks made to PC Hutt by Kate Eddowes: “I shall get a damn fine hiding when I get home.”

Once the pre-existing relationship between Stride and Broad Shoulders is recognized, the murder and its preamble begin to make a great deal more sense. The sudden and seemingly unprovoked assault observed by Schwartz, the ‘quiet screams’ – even the “Lipski” comment , which was almost certainly intended to mean something along the lines of, ‘This is private, none of your business, move on, or else.’ It also explains why Stride accompanied Broad Shoulders into Dutfield’s Yard. The area was dark, secluded and afforded the couple sufficient privacy to sort out a ‘marital’.

When viewed in these terms, the forensic inconsistencies relating to Stride’s throat injury assume special significance, as indeed does the absence of asphyxiation and the fact that Stride was lying on her side rather than on her back. The reason why this crime was so markedly different from the rest of the series has nothing whatever to do with the arrival of Louis Diemschutz. In reality, Stride’s killer was long gone by the time Diemschutz arrived on the scene. There was no interruption and therefore nothing to prevent the killer from inflicting the Ripper-type abdominal mutilations. The explanation for their absence is eminently straightforward – Stride was not killed by Jack the Ripper.

As for Broad Shoulders, it is possible that he was Michael Kidney. It is equally possible, however, that he was another paramour about whom we know nothing. He might have been an employer or even a relatively close associate with a connection to Stride’s lodgings. Whatever his identity, he was close to Stride and clearly harboured a degree of malicious intent that preceded the Berner Street encounter.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[DVV]

Hi Garry,

we would then have two incredibly lucky prostitutes killers on the same night, same area...
Not to mention the Goulston Street Juwes and the Berner Street Jewish Club.

Amitiés,
David