Did jack kill liz stride?

[Fleetwood Mac]

To add Maurice.....say a Brummie was to say the word "today" to you....it would sound something like: "t'dye"....you really wouldn't be able to pick out what was being said unless you were used to it. As I said don't underestimate it.

Right then.....I'm going to find a link to a Cockney accent on you tube and let you all decide....see what you think.....

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor,

If you are inclined to believe the contemporary doctors opinions ( and I am inclined so too) then why do you say that these women's throats were cut while standing when none of the medicos in any of these murders suggest such. The closest to your assumtion is Blackwell's theory that Stride may have been cut while she was falling. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You make assertions without backing them up with contemporary evidence and when called on that you ask what proof someone else had against it. When you make assertions, show the evidence like the rest of us researchers do. All of the canonicals were believed by every single contemporary expert to have had their throats cut while prone because there was no blood on their shoulders or chest. Well expert is open to interpretation !

Well if he cut their throat as i have sugested and then let them fall to the ground. then the blood would be on the ground would it not. Which is where the doctors noted the blood.

Well why dont you try a simple excersise at home with your wife. Lay her face down on the floor which is how you seem to suggest the killer held the women. Sit astride her back holding her head back as if you were going to cut her throat. Now it is suggested and i beleive it to be correct that a knife with at least a 6inch blade was used. Now you get such a knife and see if it is possible to stick the knife into the throat (not literally) at a point almost centre and then try to draw it across.

You will find it almost impossible due to not being able to get very much leverage in that position and not being able to insert the knife deep into the throat all due to the size of the knife. Wheras if the killer had the victms standing up and he was holding them from behind he could easily stick the knife deep into the centre of the throat drawing it across and making a deep incision.

Others have suggested the killer cut their throats when they were laying face up. I dont beleive that it would be difficult to execute the cutting that way due to the angle of the cut required.

You can't even comprehend Dr. Phillips' testimony in regard to Annie Chapman that shows without a doubt that he noticed her uterus missing at the crime scene , thus debunking your ridiculous theory about the organs being removed elsewhere.

You are wrong again you obvioulsy cant understand Dr Phillips statement
I offer the challenge, again, right now, that if there is anyone on these boards that agree with Trevor Marriott's theory about the organs being removed by someone other than their killer, I personally am happy to debate them Anywhere on that subject. Its time to put all of this crap to rest once and for all.

You are the one talking all the crap, any debate you take part in would be biased in favour of your own misconception an failure to read and understand important facts in the case.

[Observer]

Do make sure you get a Cockney saying the name LIPSKI

[Fleetwood Mac]

Whatever the accent, today and Lipski are two very different propositions. Lipski is a name a very simple two syllable name LIP SKI, it makes no difference how it's prounounced in Hungarian, in all pobability something like this LIP SKI. The fact is Schwartz was recalling what he heard, that is the name LIPSKI. Today can be prounounced differently according to differing accents, yes, but the word that Schwartz heard was Lipski. OK lets have a few words in best Cockney that closely resembles the name Lipski.

Observer

Well....let's go with Lipski...any Cockneys on the board?

I can tell you it wouldn't be LIP SKI as you assume. It would be something like: "Lipskye". And the speed of pronunication would be entirely different to Magyar or Yiddish.

The only reason we understand it......or you would understand my Geordie accent....is because you have the experience of hearing it on some sort of regular basis....which means you can take in the words through habit alone.

Just put yourself in someone else's shoes for a minute....forget what you know.....and imagine someone who can't even speak English hearing a Cockney/Scouse/Geordie accent.....do you really think they'd pick it up? It ain't even English really...the English working class speak semi-English....with a whole load of slang in there and even some Old Norse hoyed in for good measure.

[Fleetwood Mac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNAdPUPNfUM

Here's one...an East Londoner.......so.....a foreigner...a non English speaking foreigner at that would be able to pick it up?

[Observer]

You totally miss the point don't you? We're dealing with one word here and one word alone, forget about any other. And no matter what the speed of delivery, no matter what the pronunciation of this simple little two syllable name "LIPSKI" Schwarts could not (in my opinion) have misheard it. Forget it, as Tom has already said from a historical perspective you have no other option but to accept it.

Observer

[Fleetwood Mac]

You totally miss the point don't you? We're dealing with one word here and one word alone, forget about any other. And no matter what the speed of delivery, no matter what the pronunciation of this simple little two syllable name "LIPSKI" Schwarts could not (in my opinion) have misheard it. Forget it, as Tom has already said from a historical perspective you have no other option but to accept it.

Observer

Seems I need a conversation with someone with an open mind and interested in discussing the possibilities. Thanks anyway Observer.

Anyone - apart from Observer - got an opinion on whether or not a Cockney pronunciation would have been easy to understand for a non English speaking foreigner - using the link above as a prompt?

[The Grave Maurice]

I liked the Carlton Leach Interview, thanks very much. But you are wandering from the point. Remember that this debate hinges on one word. To refresh your memory, here's the quote from Swanson's account of his translated interview with Schwartz (Ultimate Sourcebook, p. 122):

The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road "Lipski" & then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man he ran as far as the railway arch but the man did not follow so far.

See? One word. No long sentences or song and dance. Whether it was pronounced Lipski or Lipskye, Schwartz had no trouble understanding it.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I liked the Carlton Leach Interview, thanks very much. But you are wandering from the point. Remember that this debate hinges on one word. To refresh your memory, here's the quote from Swanson's account of his translated interview with Schwartz (Ultimate Sourcebook, p. 122):

The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road "Lipski" & then Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man he ran as far as the railway arch but the man did not follow so far.

See? One word. No long sentences or song and dance. Whether it was pronounced Lipski or Lipskye, Schwartz had no trouble understanding it.

Yes....I know Schwartz said he had no trouble understanding it.

But what do you think?....a non English speaking foreigner hearing a Cockney speak....he'd understand it? bearing in mind the difference in tone/speed everything? A completely alien language cloud by a thick accent? I'm not convinced he would.

Have you ever been to France or Germany and not understood key words and asked them to repeat the word but it doesn't matter how much they repeat it you still don't understand it........because though you may know some written French it is spoken entirely different....and to the untrained ear it is difficult to get to grips with. Now I spoke A-level French...and got the shock of my life when I went to France and realised that what you learn at school is not how it's spoken in France.....is it really that much of a stretch to say that he wouldn't have picked it up and people here can't see this because they speak English and are acquainated with regional dialects?

[c.d.]

We seem to be assuming that Schwartz never heard the word before are we not?

c.d.

[Roy Corduroy]

We seem to be assuming that Schwartz never heard the word before are we not?.

Hi c.d.,

To answer you theoretical question, no we shouldn't assume that. Just like we shouldn't assume the Broadshouldered Man was cockney. A recent find by Debra A (click here) showed that in the same year, 1888, in the same place, St George's, "Lipski" was used as a derogatory term by one Jew to another.

And welcome Mr. Fleetwood Mac to the discussion group.

Roy

[harry]

Something to remember.As BS was never identified,so neither was his nationality.The word spoken might have been in a language other than English,so how many words in foreign languages might resemble Lipsky?

[Addy]

However, if he wanted to insult pipeman or Schwartz, he would have used the word in English so they would understand wouldn't he? If he was familiar enough with the neighbourhood to know it was an insult, he probably knew how to pronounce the word, even with an accent

Greetings,

Addy

[Jon Guy]

Good Morning all,

Apologies if this has already been mentioned but it is worth noting that as a resident of Berner St, there is a strong case for Schwartz being more than aware of the murder that took place in the next street, only the summer before and the name Lipski.

[harry]

Addy,
His knowledge of the English language might have been poor.More to the point,did BS,and he is the person mouthing the word,know of the Lipski killing,and the nature of the insult connected to it?.The odds might appear in his favour,but we should not take anything for granted,being as nothing is known of the person.I have never considered Schwartz to be a good witness.That he saw Stride and two males,and an incident at the gate,is about all that can be believed.It is the details that are bothersome.