Timings at Dutfields Yard-From The IWMA thread

[DVV]

Hi Cd

agreed all round. Pure common sense to me.

Amitiés,
David

[c.d.]

The problem with all these "encounter" scenarios is motive. Swanson stated that the police found nothing in Liz's background that would indicate that her killer was someone she knew. That brings us to chance encounters with strangers. No matter how plausible the method by which the actor gets on the stage we still have to deal with the question of motive. No argument is heard and Liz is still clutching at the cachous. Does a derogatory remark by Liz make her killer automatically reach for his knife? Is that all it takes? Maybe. But why not just slap her around or even cut her face? Her killer obviously wanted her dead. While certainly possible, I just find it not so probable that this was all spur of the moment and that Liz simply ran into the wrong man at the wrong time.

c.d.

[DVV]

Hi Tom,

Rich and interesting post, no doubt.
I'd just point out that potential killers and serious suspects aren't one and the same thing.

Amitiés,
David

[Tom_Wescott]

The Club Member theory

As Hunter touched upon, it's possible that the man Schwartz saw was trying to enter into the club yard but found himself face to face with Stride. He spoke to her, trying to determine why she was there. When he found out, he physically tried to remove her from the yard. This is only one possibility among many, but just for the sake of argument...

The last two men to enter the clubhouse were (in order) Joseph Lave and Morris Eagle. This was about 20 minutes before Diemschutz arrived home and discovered the body. Morris Eagle, upon seeing the body, acted shocked and would not look at it too closely. Was this because he was squeamish or because he recognized the woman from earlier?

If Schwartz saw BS Man walking along the pavement just ahead of him headed down Berner Street, why did he not see this man as he turned onto Berner Street from Commercial Road? A possible explanation is that the man entered Berner Street not from the main thoroughfar, but from one of the little alleys that connected the streets. Yet another possibility is that the man had come out of the front door to get some fresh air, walked up the length of the sidewalk, and on his way back through the yard (the front door would have been locked from the inside) he found Stride standing there and confronted her. This man would have been Joseph Lave, a Russian recently arrived from America and temporarily staying at the club (as I believe Schwartz did) and thus an unknown entity to the other members of the club.

The man PC Smith saw Stride with at 12:30 or 12:35 was carrying a parcel wrapped in newspaper. The parcel measured about 18" long and 6" wide. I personally measured a copy of the Arbeter Fraint and it was precisely this measurement. The paper was printed right there at the club, was not folded as is standard for newspapers, and a bundle of them would likely have been wrapped cross-ways with string. In short, it would have looked like a parcel wrapped in newspaper. The clubmen would hand out free copies of their paper on weekends when they'd have these parties, the purpose of which was always to recruit new members and supporters.

The man PC Smith described was young and well-dressed and standing outside the club on the opposite side of the street. If this man was a clubman who invited Stride in for the party and meeting, this would explain how she found herself in their yard and this would leave a clubman (though not necessarily a member) as the most likely suspect for her murder.

By posting the above, I'm not saying I endorse any of it. But one must consider every possibility. And as you can see, there are more potential killers for Stride than just the Ripper and Michael Kidney.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Why are we assuming that the club members would automatically want to protect a murderer even if it was one of their own? You could argue that they didn't want the stigma attached to the club but it also would have been a golden opportunity to turn the murderer in and say "we respect the law and follow it, member or non-member, Jew or gentile."

c.d.

Hi cd,

Im not so sure I feel confident that the murderer was directly tied to the club in some regular attendee way, and all we really need here is some thug with a temper and a knife and for Liz to mouth off to him and turn away.

Maybe "low men" unaffiliated came into the yard after the meetings, maybe he was a hired security measure who at the end of the night is drunk now that the meeting was over,...maybe he came in off the street and no-one knew him.

In that scenario the alterations of timings by club members to lessen the appearance of some complicity in the criminal act is self protection.....they are not displaying any anti-police or desire to shield anyone from the justice system.

If he was one of the members, then I agree with you, why wouldn't they just turn him in and look all the more law abiding in the process? He would be a killer, so there might be some fear initially,....but a story like that never surfaced as far as I can tell.

So that suggests a scenario likely more like the first example, which doesnt assume any complicity or assistance by the members but merely self protective measures for their organization and socialist paper,...which Ive shown with some evidence on the IWMA/Wess thread, was owned and operated by the club. Wess and Krantz were not just independant businessmen in the yard.

I dont like blaming anyone or any group without some just cause in evidence,... and that goes for The Ripper as well.

Best regards

ps.....Ive thought more about the posted idea that as many unaffiliated witnesses as we can use is the optimum, but I didnt explain why I also put Isaac in that group. He was seventeen, his story was likely given when he returned to the yard after finding Eagle returning with a policeman and seeing no-one else.

That means when he returns no-one had time or opportunity to plant a story timeline into his head. Spooner has already come into the yard with Louis and whomever he left the yard with, as he sent Isaac out alone earlier, and Eagle is bringing the law with him.

So he tells a pressman his story that starts with Louis calling him into the yard at 12:40am , and includes his solo chase for help....and when its published Louis can see that it directly refutes his own story timeline.

So.....as it turns out, only one of those men makes an Inquest statement....and he was the Club Steward.

Best regards cd

[c.d.]

Why are we assuming that the club members would automatically want to protect a murderer even if it was one of their own? You could argue that they didn't want the stigma attached to the club but it also would have been a golden opportunity to turn the murderer in and say "we respect the law and follow it, member or non-member, Jew or gentile."

c.d.

[Hunter]

Thanks for the post and the nice sign off Hunter.

A club member shooing her away,...Im thinking that the statements from the neighbors shows that "low men and women" were often hanging around after meetings...in the yard making noise....until after 1am. That doesnt sound to me like the type of guys that would be upset if a street woman was generally available....after all, at that point she in not on their property.

I italicized the making noise for a reason.....how do we know for sure that any or all of the noise that could be heard was through the window from the upper floor?

I think as far as Israel statement goes, its is far too favorable towards the club and the men within, and it conspicuously, to me anyway, introduces the assaulting man as a gentile.

I also think an empty yard would have been an anomaly rather than the norm based on the neighbors statements,... I know that some of the men that we rely on for the timing attack police with clubs in just a few months...in Dutfields Yard itself...at least 2 main characters of are arrested.....I suspect that Goldstein intended to bring his bag of cigarette cartons into the cottages where were are told some cigarette makers were still awake, and was shooed off by some men just inside the gates near the passageway....which explains his "hurriedly" pace description by Fanny once he had looked inside the yard...and in what I feel may be a significant action, Im very skeptical of Eagle's rationalizations as compared with his actions. Eagle said he didnt look at the women long because the sight of blood sickened him...yet, he also says he "tumbled pell-mell" down the stairs when he hears Louis downstairs talking about a woman found by the gates.

In your life experience, is the guy with the weakest stomach usually the first guy of a group of men that runs up to the wounded bleeding animal they all see? Why would he contrast his own statement about his "fear" of blood with the line about his quick decent to the side of the body?

I believe it may be that he knew he was seen tumbling pell-mell, and that his interest wasnt yet explained but shouldnt seen ghoulish when it was.

I believe his real interest was in the fact that he had just seen a woman inside the yard by the gates before he came in via the side door,..maybe even knew her. She did work for Jewish Families in the area. And she may have had a date that night. An expected all nighter

Cheers Hunter, all the best.

Hi Michael,
It does seem like the neighbors had a low opinion about the place, probably for several reasons, but the members in their statements made it sound like the chapel at St. Marys ( that may be a bad analogy but you get the picture). My point was that I find it near impossible that none of the club members saw Liz that night until she was found dead- which shouldn't conflict with your theory. Now whether they were complicit in something or just frightened of the implications due to the Leather Apron debacle- I don't have an opinion.

As far as Eagles nearly breaking his neck to get out to see the body even though he's squemish, I don't know. I have hunted with guys who excitedly ran up to the game they had shot to see it and then hand me the knife to feld dress it because it made them sick. Go figure.

Whether Liz was waiting for someone or soliciting there was some reason she was there and as you said, she had been working among the Jews and could have developed some acquantices, either puritanical or professional, and some could have been afiliated with that club.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

Let's put Schwartz back in the scenerio for a minute. What if he did see an altercation between Liz and a man outside the gate? But it was a club member that was trying to get Liz away from the club because she was soliciting. There were evidently men coming in and out of the club throughout the night and if PC Smith (whose testimony I do believe) saw Liz at 12:30 some of the club members had to see her too, yet none admit it to police. The only thing different could be Schwartz's description of the man so a fellow Jew wouldn't be incriminated.

This may discount Brown and Mortimer but I think they may have both seen the other couple anyway. Look at it this way. We know Liz was near the club from 12:30 until the time she was killed. Who knows how long before, but its hard to imagine that nobody going in or out of there didn't see her, but that is evidently what everyone there said. Come on now.

Best wishes and good thread Michael,
Hunter

Thanks for the post and the nice sign off Hunter.

A club member shooing her away,...Im thinking that the statements from the neighbors shows that "low men and women" were often hanging around after meetings...in the yard making noise....until after 1am. That doesnt sound to me like the type of guys that would be upset if a street woman was generally available....after all, at that point she in not on their property.

I italicized the making noise for a reason.....how do we know for sure that any or all of the noise that could be heard was through the window from the upper floor?

I think as far as Israel statement goes, its is far too favorable towards the club and the men within, and it conspicuously, to me anyway, introduces the assaulting man as a gentile.

I also think an empty yard would have been an anomaly rather than the norm based on the neighbors statements,... I know that some of the men that we rely on for the timing attack police with clubs in just a few months...in Dutfields Yard itself...at least 2 main characters of are arrested.....I suspect that Goldstein intended to bring his bag of cigarette cartons into the cottages where were are told some cigarette makers were still awake, and was shooed off by some men just inside the gates near the passageway....which explains his "hurriedly" pace description by Fanny once he had looked inside the yard...and in what I feel may be a significant action, Im very skeptical of Eagle's rationalizations as compared with his actions. Eagle said he didnt look at the women long because the sight of blood sickened him...yet, he also says he "tumbled pell-mell" down the stairs when he hears Louis downstairs talking about a woman found by the gates.

In your life experience, is the guy with the weakest stomach usually the first guy of a group of men that runs up to the wounded bleeding animal they all see? Why would he contrast his own statement about his "fear" of blood with the line about his quick decent to the side of the body?

I believe it may be that he knew he was seen tumbling pell-mell, and that his interest wasnt yet explained but shouldnt seen ghoulish when it was.

I believe his real interest was in the fact that he had just seen a woman inside the yard by the gates before he came in via the side door,..maybe even knew her. She did work for Jewish Families in the area. And she may have had a date that night. An expected all nighter

Cheers Hunter, all the best.

[Hunter]

Back to Schwartz

Let's put Schwartz back in the scenerio for a minute. What if he did see an altercation between Liz and a man outside the gate? But it was a club member that was trying to get Liz away from the club because she was soliciting. There were evidently men coming in and out of the club throughout the night and if PC Smith (whose testimony I do believe) saw Liz at 12:30 some of the club members had to see her too, yet none admit it to police. The only thing different could be Schwartz's description of the man so a fellow Jew wouldn't be incriminated.

This may discount Brown and Mortimer but I think they may have both seen the other couple anyway. Look at it this way. We know Liz was near the club from 12:30 until the time she was killed. Who knows how long before, but its hard to imagine that nobody going in or out of there didn't see her, but that is evidently what everyone there said. Come on now.

Best wishes and good thread Michael,
Hunter

It's not far-fetched to expect a clubmember. That's certainly not the most farfetched thing Mike has suggested. After all, her body was found in their yard, and socialist/anarchist clubs attract some dangerous characters. I've suggested Morris Eagle as a possible BS Man, but I don't think he killed Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

You started out so nice..... then wrote that second sentence.

As I said, if I can use witness timings without resorting to ones that may be tainted or at least constructed to be the least potentially damaging for an operating business and socio-political hub of the neighborhood...Ive recently come across some info that suggests 40 Berner was the happening place for the socially unsatisfied....then I would prefer to do so.

Its a luxury here that we have so many witnesses in and around the scene very near her death cut time that we can be 99% sure werent "pro-club" witnesses.....and that when using their accounts combined, it remains consistent within what they created as a timeline.

Best regards Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

It's not far-fetched to expect a clubmember. That's certainly not the most farfetched thing Mike has suggested. After all, her body was found in their yard, and socialist/anarchist clubs attract some dangerous characters. I've suggested Morris Eagle as a possible BS Man, but I don't think he killed Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Exactly, Mike,

so let's go ahead and we'll see if it works or not.
You believe in different timings, suspect club members, and are ready to dismiss some witnesses.
Come on...
Let's get Schwartz out, for the sake of discussion.
And still we have to choose between Koz and Brown.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

I'm reluctant to spoil the broth with some "root of Israel" David, ......for a few reasons.

1. Its possible Israel was affilated with the Club or attended the meeting, based on the weak premise of his reason for being there at that time, his ethnic and social match with the members inside, and its possible William "Woolf" Wess may have translated for him, something he does for a fellow member Leon Goldstein on Tuesday night I believe. Thats courtesy of Toms research I believe.
2. If Israel was where he said he was and what he said happened did, Brown would certainly have seen at least a portion of that event and Fanny even may have heard or seen it, but neither heard or saw anything of Israel, BSM or Pipeman.
3. Israel Schwartz is not recorded as being a witness who testifies at the Elizabeth Stride Inquest.
4. There are no documents that suggest his testimony was in any way suppressed, as is documented in the case of Lawende.
5. We have a press article shortly after he came forward that suggests the Police did not "wholly" believe his story.
6. If Israel was correct, then Issac was wrong, Spooner was wrong, Brown wasnt in a position to see the gates, and the yell "Lipski" must have been quiet enough to have been missed by Fanny.
7. No-one corroborates this story.
8. Any reflection in police correspondence regarding this witness from this point on concerns the call of "Lipski"...the only element of his story they continued to debate. Not the assault. Because they had a theory that involved the killers ethnicity at that time, and a Gentile as BSM alias Jack didnt work.

If you use the press accounts of PC Smith and Isaac and Spooner and Brown and Fanny....and allow for a 5 minute window on either side of their time as an error allowance....the multi-sided story fits roughly together. All that's needed is for Brown to have been slightly too late in his time, actually.

I would rather piece together information from witness sources that I can be fairly certain would have no impetus to protect the club or its members.....and when the people mentioned above fit into a continuous fluid storyline that has Liz out of sight shortly after Smith saw her...I believe that suggests that she was out of sight when Israel says he saw the "altercation".

IF- Louis actually arrived near 12:40-45, and Brown saw Liz at 12:40-45, the stories of the aforementioned witnesses work as a timeline.....which raises the interesting idea that AP once put forth about this murder, that it was caused accidentally.

My best regards David

[DVV]

How exactly this fits together is the reason I started this and am discussing it....if I had all the answers you'd know where to buy the book already.

Exactly, Mike,

so let's go ahead and we'll see if it works or not.
You believe in different timings, suspect club members, and are ready to dismiss some witnesses.
Come on...
Let's get Schwartz out, for the sake of discussion.
And still we have to choose between Koz and Brown.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[Sox]

To tell the truth I think all that is going on here is that Spooner gets the time wrong in his testimony, but gets it right in his statement, and that Kozebrodsky's press interview was poorly conducted.

Morris Eagle is basically the cement in this wall.

Or.....the Police had discredited his statement of course, which is by far the simpler explanation Mike. Yet another reason why we dearly wish that we had all of the Police records/notes/papers from 1888.

Personally I always leave his statement out. (which is why I suggested trying it) Mortimer is in and out of her door and could easily miss a couple going into the yard, but it is unlikely she would miss the scene that Schwartz describes. Isaac goes into the yard at around 12:45, seeing nothing....nobody except Schwartz claims to see Liz Stride after 12:45.

I wont belabour the point Sox, suffice to say your last line supports the "time period" of the event that I was suggesting....at least 15 minutes before Louis says he arrived.

If Liz isn't outside the gates at 12:40-45, she was probably inside them. If she is outside the gates during those 5 minutes, Isaac and Spooner need only be off by a few minutes and Brown can be correct....if he also is allowed that lenience. Maybe he saw her a few minutes earlier.

But neither Spooner nor Isaac need be off by 20 minutes....which they both are by Louis's statement. Since Louis is the steward, think he might have prevented Isaac from giving those times and that story at the Inquest? Sure would have contradicted him.

And where exactly was that Israel fella when we needed him on the stand?

Best regards