Timings at Dutfields Yard-From The IWMA thread

Hi Mike,

let's prune a bit...

You can forget and dismiss Brown as a witness.
He has both Schwartz and Kozebrodski against him.

Amitiés,
David

Ah, but my friend Brown is the only man with the 12:45am sighting on record at the Inquest....might I suggest reversing the role of the "trashman"? And Brown wouldnt have seen anyone in the yard...not from his angle.

If you start seeing that around 12:40 or 12:45 we seem to have witness convergence and some timeline verifications, what would 15 minutes of delay in seeking help do for your opinion of our Club men and their tales?

Thanks for the high five Lynn.

Cheers David, all the best

[DVV]

Hi Mike,

let's prune a bit...

You can forget and dismiss Brown as a witness.
He has both Schwartz and Kozebrodski against him.

Amitiés,
David

[lynn cates]

schedule

Hello Mike. Bravo! Well done.

Of course, there's the old saw, "Jack didn't have to operate on a schedule did he?" (snicker!)

The best, mate.
LC

You might include the American, Lave, I believe, because he states somewhere( probably to the press, maybe the Daily News) the he was outside about 12:40 also.

One question, though. Where does Mrs. Mortimer fit into this? The Evening News I believe reported that she heard Diemshutz's cart go by just before 1 and then the commotion started, albeit not a direct quote as I recall and not part of the inquest testimony.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

Heres a quick timeline of the most relevant witness statements Hunter, without all the particulars...

12:35- PC Smith sees Liz with a man
12:35-Spooner says he met with 2 men from the Club in the street
12:40-Lave says he was returning to his room in the yard after being in the yard and by the gates until roughly this time, saw no-one
12:40-Eagle says he returned, tried the front door, and entered via the yard, saw no-one
12:40-Isaac Kozebrodski says Louis Diemshutz called him in to the yard, alone
12:41-Isaac says Louis sent him to go for help, alone
12:40-45-Spooner's account says he is in the yard
12:45-Israel Schwartz says he sees Liz Stride and a Broadshouldered Man interact roughly in front of the gate. He says the man yelled at him "Lipski" when he was looking at the man, and Israel noticed a man on the other side of the road with a pipe, coming out of a doorway.
12:45-James Brown says he saw Liz Stride with a man by the school, the man was leaning over her with her back to the wall and he heard some quiet conversation that included the woman saying "not tonight"
12:45-1:00am-Fanny Mortimer says she was out to her door and back inside off and on from this point until 1am. Sees no-one by the gates until 12:56am
12:45am to 12:56am-Fanny hears boots she thinks are police
12:45-Isaac says he returned to the yard alone, having met no-one
12:56-Fanny sees Goldstein pass hurriedly by after looking in the yard
Near 1:00am-Fanny hears a cart and horse
1:00-Louis Diemshutz says he pulled into the yard and discovered the body
1:01-Louis says he ran indoors and called upstairs for people to come and see.
1:01-1:02-Louis and Eagle say they and Isaac and some other men are first by the body
1:02-1:03-Louis says he and Isaac go running out towards Grove, Eagle says he heads out towards Commercial
1:05-Louis says he and Isaac meet Spooner on the street
1:06-Louis's timing has Spooner first arriving now
1:10-First police onsite
1:16-Blackwell arrives

Now, not all these are Inquest witnesses, including Israel, but thats what the press reports some said that day.

That means that Isaac not only confused what time he went into the yard, who called him, who he left the yard with and who he met while returning...even whether he was alone or not. Spooner must have also been wrong, although his timing and Isaac's match up roughly...if either is off a few minutes. Since we know Spooner's time is the time that PC Smith sees Liz, I suggest he was in error a few minutes.

And that means they both were off by 20 minutes.
And that its possible by the above that Lave, Eagle, Isaac and Louis were in the yard at 12:40am, and at least Eagle and Lave didnt see anyone. Louis of course says he wasnt even on Berner Street yet.

Hope that helps illustrate some of the problems I see.

Best regards Hunter

[Hunter]

You might include the American, Lave, I believe, because he states somewhere( probably to the press, maybe the Daily News) the he was outside about 12:40 also.

One question, though. Where does Mrs. Mortimer fit into this? The Evening News I believe reported that she heard Diemshutz's cart go by just before 1 and then the commotion started, albeit not a direct quote as I recall and not part of the inquest testimony.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

The act cannot be concealed, and has to be reported in short order to the Police

The act is concealed Mike, nobody see's Stride actually killed, and between 12:45 when Schwartz see's the assault and 01:00am when Diemschutz discovers the body there is a fifteen minute window when the killer, or killers, could easily have dragged Strides body further back into the yard. Hiding it they could simply have waited until all was quiet in the club, and then gone back to remove/dispose of it.

And just exactly how do you coerce two hundred plus people into silence over the brutal killing of a woman? Even given that every single one of them shares the same political belief (something we do not know, half of them could have been there for a drink and a sing song) this by no means that they all share the same lack of moral indignation over the slaying of a complete stranger, and a female one at that.

Hi Sox,

In your first sentence....the crime having been committed could not be concealed...thats where I was going, not that it was done in private.

And as far as timings go, if we care to include 2 other witness that give their times, the murder may have been committed before this Israel fella says he saw what he saw,a nd 15 minutes before Diemshitz says he arrived.....which would put the Schwartz ID of Liz in serious question, as well as Diemshutz's accuracy on his time...dont you agree?

As I indicated, that the Club HAD to portray themselves as completely blameless in order to continue to have a Club at all...since the Police had concerns about this club in terms of anarchists before any murder in the yard....and since Ive recently discovered that in fact this was considered the HQ for such individuals in the area at that point in time.

Youll note that I mentioned few had to know that someone hired by or loosely connected with the club had anything to do with the murder...by Isaacs statement he is called into the yard by Diemshutz at 12:40am and Eagle and the bunch now upstairs dont come down until Diemshutz enters the house to look for his wife and notify the remaining members about what he found.

These same men are arrested within months for attacking the Police with Clubs in that same yard....their lawlessness and disregard for legal authority is therefore documented.

What youre asking is why would they lie.....what Im telling you is that few even had to lie....Diemshutz, Mrs D, Isaac K, and Eagle. The Club Steward, his wife, his right hand man and the Club speaker. Maybe Wess. The men, and woman, who had the most to lose if the Club closed.

The woman was dead, what did it really matter in their eyes if their stories intentionally made the Club look less culpable anyway? They didnt kill her...she just happened to die in their yard.

Best regards Sox

[Sox]

The act cannot be concealed, and has to be reported in short order to the Police

The act is concealed Mike, nobody see's Stride actually killed, and between 12:45 when Schwartz see's the assault and 01:00am when Diemschutz discovers the body there is a fifteen minute window when the killer, or killers, could easily have dragged Strides body further back into the yard. Hiding it they could simply have waited until all was quiet in the club, and then gone back to remove/dispose of it.

And just exactly how do you coerce two hundred plus people into silence over the brutal killing of a woman? Even given that every single one of them shares the same political belief (something we do not know, half of them could have been there for a drink and a sing song) this by no means that they all share the same lack of moral indignation over the slaying of a complete stranger, and a female one at that.

[DVV]

Thank you Mike,

I've read it carefully but reserve my comments.
It's late.

Amitiés,
David

I guess Davids concerns as to where I might be going with all this have hit home a bit, so Ill try to flesh out a complete idea thats based on the foundation that the Club fudged their stories to preserve the image of complete innocence.....

-In September of 88 The Whitechapel Murderer is thought by the Senior man on the ground, although on an ordered "rest" at the time of these murders, to be a European Immigrant Jewish man living in the East End near the murder sites with friends or relatives.
-We have a murder that requires only a killer with a knife and 2 seconds of time the last day of September.
-It happens inside a private yard owned by European Immigrant Jews who were thought by the police to have been anarchist socialists.
-Many were still in the club when this occurs
-Someone finds the woman lying on the ground across the path inside the yard between 12:40 and 1am
-The meeting that night housed some 200 active Socialists....and due to the very nature of the organizations anarchist reputation, likely there were some men that were used for crowd control and security.
-These men may be hired local goons and unaffiliated directly with the Club other than as employees on those nights. Le Grand might fit that kind of profile to mention one local man.
-They may be men to which committing a crime doesnt present a moral dilemma, perhaps even violent crime
-One of these men may have killed the street prostitute that was found in the yard simply because she insulted him, somewhat supported by the lack of any additional skills or knowledge that was needed to complete the act and the brevity and speed of the act. An emotional response by a man predisposed to violence,
-The act cannot be concealed, and has to be reported in short order to the Police
-The Police will of course under the circumstances and their leaders intuitions assume that its possible this is the place where the Immigrant Jew Whitechapel Murderer hangs out
-As the members who have arrived at the woman's death site from inside the club consider the best course of action, some of the members who were in the yard or saw whether anyone from outside the organization on the street could have seen what happened from 12:30 to 1am discover by exchanging their stories that no-one except club members were on the street or in the yard at that time.
-It is agreed that the best representation of their innocence starts with the yard being empty...so it suggests the killer came in the open gates from the street
-The men agree that this is best way to go and to support that in their statements, and begin to seek the police on the street, ensuring that they portray the crime as "another murder", implying this is one of a number of them
-The Thug may have been ushered off property immediately, or perhaps brought in the side door to wash him off then sent him out the front door with a hanky while the men gathered by the gates inside the yard
-Few of the men need lie directly.
-All will need to portray this as a non Club murder
-The Thug is either no longer used by the club or kept from it for a period of time
-The Club does this as a means of self preservation and protection, not to conceal the man, they were obligated by the location and circumstances to do so

The Final point.....the clear affiliations that existed between the radical fringe elements of Irish Self rule activists and Socialist anarchists allows some of this cover-up to be known among those various groups. Some are extreme radicals. Planning major terrorist actions. They see that in the story of the Berner Club concealment lies the probability that such crimes could be easily masqueraded as ones that had been happening recently due to the paranoia and the unpredictability of the killers habits based on that single throat cut and the automatic association with a bowel dissector, and that the street climate and the crowds and the angst and the tension were ripe for some meaningful actions "for the cause".

The people were now unified in their disgust and mistrust of the upper classes and their guards, the local police forces and particularly Warren, even moreso due to Trafalgar being less than a year before...

And these crimes were breaking the banks and draining the resources of that Society they wanted toppled.

The rest is likely self evident....some crimes in the series were not Ripper crimes but ones that utilized the climate he created.

I see a real madman, and some very dangerous men in the one Canonical Group.

Hope that answers what Im trying to piece together.

My best regards all.

Certainly,

and it suggests a scenario that Mike should develop...
For the sake of discussion, let's admit that:

-Stride has been killed (and discovered) before 12:45
-Schwartz was a club member
-He never saw any BSM attack on Liz

That would suggest a third suspect for this murder, after Jack and Kidney.

Who?
Why?
In which way did Schwartz account help for a cover-up?
Why have two witnesses "confessed" that all happened before 12:45?

Amitiés,
David

YES....the part in bold is where Im going David, Bingo.......but not looked at in isolation, because the same man might figure in some way in another Whitechapel Murder. In my estimate all the man need be is a thug who is capable of violence and being angered.

When I see the absolute need for the Club to ensure that the police saw their "innocence", and I know these were people the police wanted to shut down before Strides death...and when she is killed so un-Jacklike.....it seems to fit together.

And Simon....thanks for adding eloquence and stability to the suggestions.

My best to all.

[lynn cates]

meeting of the minds

Hello Mike. Perhaps Mr. Spock is not the only one capable of a mind meld. (snicker!)

The best.
LC

Hello Maggy. I think your observations about time are dead on. And so we have a problem for a good many of the witness accounts for all the canonicals; or, better, purported accounts.

It seems likely that the club had a clock; but, this is mere speculation. Moreover, even given a clock, how can we be sure it was accurate?

On the other hand, Mike's point is a very important one. If many of the witness's times coincide, then there seem to be at least 2 possible explanations. 1. There was a timepiece against which each "witness" synchronized his testimony. 2. A certain time was "agreed" upon by some of the club members with Louis being a bit of an "odd man out."

The best.
LC

My intended point precisely Lynn....thanks mate.

My best, old chum

[DVV]

Of course, if one is satisfied with the stock answers here, such an investigation will never be begun.
LC

Hi Lynn,

well, it's more about incomplete answers, for me.
But I have to let Mike celebrate Christmas!

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

Hi David,

Stride's murder had to be made to look like part of a "double event" because you can't launch a Jack the Ripper lone serial killer scare if people know there's more than one murderer on the loose.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

I understand this idea, but it stills a bit cryptic for a down-to-earth Toppy-like guy like me...not to mention my frequent misunderstandings on boards...

Let me try to put it straight:

I may be candid, but I'm still of opinion that Schwartz saw BSM assaulting Liz, and that BSM was probably JtR.
If Schwartz was also correct in his timing, I admit that the killer hasn't been disturbed by Diemshitzshutz.

That's my uncertain views, but I'm eager to test other hypothesis.
Other timings and other killers.
I merely want to know who, among the club members and various witnesses, are suspects?
Who were correct in their timings, and why? What role did they play, or not, in the murder?
Who lied in their timings, and why ? And what about their implication...Etc

In short: Is an alternative scenario involving club members more likely than those based on Jack or Kidney ?

Dähna hun, Gash Simon!
David

[lynn cates]

Do Not Disturb

Hello Simon.

"Israel Schwartz's story has more going for it than all the others put together and makes nonsense of the "Ripper being disturbed at 1.00 am"."

Well spoke.

The best.
LC