Timings at Dutfields Yard-From The IWMA thread

[lynn cates]

questions

Hello DVV.

"That would suggest a third suspect for this murder, after Jack and Kidney.

Who?
Why?
In which way did Schwartz account help for a cover-up?"

Excellent questions! These should be the focus for investigation, minor speculation, more investigation, etc.

Of course, if one is satisfied with the stock answers here, such an investigation will never be begun.

The best.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

Stride's murder had to be made to look like part of a "double event" because you can't launch a Jack the Ripper lone serial killer scare if people know there's more than one murderer on the loose.

Regards,

Simon

[DVV]

Hi Simon,

Good enough for me...
Mrs Mortimer would then be indoors before or around 12:45, that's it ?
Which means Goldstein passed in B Street before Schwartz, and then "shortly before 1:00" actually refers to 15 to 20 minutes before 1:00...

Es pas la casso ei limaçoun, aco!!!

Amitiés,
David

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

Let's agree that Stride was dead at 1.00 am.

[Coroner] "Did you form any opinion as to how long the deceased had been dead?"

[Doctor Blackwell, who by his own account arrived in Dutfields Yard at 1.16 am] "From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived . . ."

This puts her time of death between 12.46 and 12.56 am.

[Blackwell] "She would have bled to death comparatively slowly on account of vessels on one side only of the neck being cut and the artery not completely severed."

Depending on the exact meaning of Stride bleeding to death "comparatively slowly", and also erring on the side of caution [I'm here allowing a modest seven minutes for her to die], puts the time of her attack between 12.39 and 12.49 am.

According to Blackwell's medical opinion Israel Schwartz's story has more going for it than all the others put together and makes nonsense of the "Ripper being disturbed at 1.00 am, hiding in the shadows, making his escape and dragging his knuckles to Mitre Square" story so beloved by the cops. Maybe that's why he didn't appear at the inquest.

Regards,

Simon

[DVV]

On the other hand, Mike's point is a very important one.
LC

Certainly,

and it suggests a scenario that Mike should develop...
For the sake of discussion, let's admit that:

-Stride has been killed (and discovered) before 12:45
-Schwartz was a club member
-He never saw any BSM attack on Liz

That would suggest a third suspect for this murder, after Jack and Kidney.

Who?
Why?
In which way did Schwartz account help for a cover-up?
Why have two witnesses "confessed" that all happened before 12:45?

Amitiés,
David

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello Maggy. I think your observations about time are dead on. And so we have a problem for a good many of the witness accounts for all the canonicals; or, better, purported accounts.

It seems likely that the club had a clock; but, this is mere speculation. Moreover, even given a clock, how can we be sure it was accurate?

On the other hand, Mike's point is a very important one. If many of the witness's times coincide, then there seem to be at least 2 possible explanations. 1. There was a timepiece against which each "witness" synchronized his testimony. 2. A certain time was "agreed" upon by some of the club members with Louis being a bit of an "odd man out."

The best.
LC

[Maggyann]

This thread is an interesting read.

Once again though I find myself wondering at the timings of everything. Just how were these witnesses so precise in their estimates of when things occured?

Were they all wearing watches? Was there a public clock in the vicinity and if so how precise was it?

To me the only person(s) likely to be anywhere near close in correct times would be the police officers who carried pocket watches I believe and even then they would not be likely to be exactly synchronised to each others.

If you were asked what you were doing at a precise hour yesterday you would have a rough idea but it highly unlikely you would be precise enough to say at e.g. 1258 I was stirring a cup of coffee.

So just how sure can anyone be, either now or back then, that the times given for any particular event are anything more than 'rough' ideas.

Hi Michael,

I'll keep this simple because it's Christmas Eve, I'm on my second egg nog and quite fancy a third.

Was Liz Stride dead at 1.00 am when found by Louis Diemschutz?

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

I do have suspicions Simon that whisper to me that Liz wasnt found at 1am at all. But that by 1am, she was dead.

I hope this will address some of Davids concerns as well, so Im being clear.....

The last impeccable witness as far as Im concerned is PC Smith, at 12:35am, and that means that Liz and someone were not yet in the yard. From that point on, no-one but Israel Schwartz sees anything or anyone in front of the gates excluding Fanny Mortimer who sees a Club member walk past the gates hurriedly around 12:56am. No people seen...no approaching cart seen or heard.

Louis Diemshutz, who shoulders the greatest responsibility at that point for the reputation of the club says clearly that he came across the woman when his pony shied at 1:am, and that he ran inside to make sure his wife was ok, then alerted the men upstairs to what had happened. They, including Eagle and Isaac, ran to see the woman, then Eagle head out towards Commercial, and Diemshitz and Isaac K head the opposite way....when they meet with Spooner on the way back from their search.

Isaac however told the press on October 1st that he was called into the yard by Louis at 12:40, he went and attended him and was asked by Louis to go find help. He does leave, finds no-one and returns to the yard. Spooner said in his interview that he saw 2 men running back towards Berner yelling and he joined them heading to the gates..at approx 25 to 1. Isaac however does not mention coming across Spooner or being with Louis while out in the street.

To me that seems to suggest that either Louis was incorrect about what he did, with who, and when he did it...or both Isaac and Spooner are incorrect. Since Spooner is the first man from outside the club as a witness....of course excluding Israel completely....Id like to imagine he was without reason to fabricate anything. However I can easily imagine why a club full of Anarchist Immigrant Socialist Jews would have a reason to portray a murder of a woman on their property as being something they had nothing to do with.

Its quite possible that was true...that doesnt mean someone they knew, or hired, could have been the culprit and they were forced due to the circumstances to cover anyway.

The police were looking for a Jewish Immigrant as Jack at that time and we have a murder on the private property of Immigrant Jews.

All Im suggesting about the Club is that they acted in self interest and rightfully so under the circumstances, not that a Club member or one of the key witnesses was the culprit. A thug with a temper and a sharp knife will do...and we are talking about anarchists and radicals here.

I do have some other ideas and some arguments about other aspects of this crime as a Canonical, but the core idea is what I was going for.

The Club had good reason to distance themselves in every possible way from this crime....and with Israel, they do so AND get a Gentile thug assaulting her minutes before and feet from where she is killed.

My best wishes Simon and David.....Im off to do the Christmas eve host thing.

[DVV]

Hi Michael,

I'll keep this simple because it's Christmas Eve, I'm on my second egg nog and quite fancy a third.

Was Liz Stride dead at 1.00 am when found by Louis Diemschutz?

Regards,

Simon

Wicked this one!

[DVV]

Hey, Mike,

you know what ? You are shying like Diemshitzshutz poney.
Who lied?
And for what?
And which aspects of Schwartz story do indicate a cover-up?
And so on, and so on...
Do you want to share your thoughts, or have you open this thread to keep them for yourself?

Tout le meilleur, comme tu penses bien!
David

[Simon Wood]

Hi Michael,

I'll keep this simple because it's Christmas Eve, I'm on my second egg nog and quite fancy a third.

Was Liz Stride dead at 1.00 am when found by Louis Diemschutz?

Regards,

Simon

Ah, mon cher Mike,

so you found another escape from Dutfield Yard...?

Have I to remind you that this thread is yours?
Please, just test your cover-up/conspiration sequence of events. C'est VRAIMENT intéressant.

Amitiés,
D

Hi David,

I admit Im unclear of what you refer to....as Ive pointed out we have 2 witnesses that state they were in the yard with the body there at 12:40 and 12:45ish respectively....Eagle and Lave say they were in the yard at 12:40, with no-one and no body. Israel says that he saw Liz "fighting" at 12:45am outside the gates and alive....a direct contradiction to the early 2 men, and Diemshutz says he found the body that he called Isaac into the yard to see at 12:40 by Isaac's account, actually at around 1:01am.

Schwartz has no corroboration at all, no-one saw the people by the gate he did, not Brown or Fanny, and his cart heard by Fanny at near 1am could be leaving, not arriving.

Excluding Schwartz, the only people we have to rely on after 12:45am are Club members.....and if I may suggest specifically.....socialist anarchist immigrant Jews who were known and harassed by the met police regularly are not the witnesses Id prefer to have to lean on....particularly when as Immigrant European Jews and considering that a murder occurs on their property...they had every reason to lie.

The police at that time believed that Jack was a European Jew living in that area....as per Anderson.

What contrasting statements could you mean....again,....noticing that I do not use anything Schwartz says.

Best regards David.

[DVV]

Ah, mon cher Mike,

so you found another escape from Dutfield Yard...?

Have I to remind you that this thread is yours?
Please, just test your cover-up/conspiration sequence of events. C'est VRAIMENT intéressant.

Amitiés,
D

Mike,

just write your sequence of events, why X or Y said that time, then, that other time, and the exact role of Schwartz story, etc, and as far as I've understood what you want to get at, well, I'm not sure it will work...

Amitiés, hope you enjoy,
David

I told you David, for me Israel is the "W" in the "X's" and "Y's"...so if it doesnt work with his story thats probably a good thing.

My Best amigo

[DVV]

Mike,

just write your sequence of events, why X or Y said that time, then, that other time, and the exact role of Schwartz story, etc, and as far as I've understood what you want to get at, well, I'm not sure it will work...

Amitiés, hope you enjoy,
David