Timings at Dutfields Yard-From The IWMA thread

[Sox]

Israel Schwartz is I believe an attempt at sleight of hand, and my feeling is thats what kept him off the Inquest call sheet. But how could they have dodged suspicion so well without his input?

Or.....the Police had discredited his statement of course, which is by far the simpler explanation Mike. Yet another reason why we dearly wish that we had all of the Police records/notes/papers from 1888.

Personally I always leave his statement out. (which is why I suggested trying it) Mortimer is in and out of her door and could easily miss a couple going into the yard, but it is unlikely she would miss the scene that Schwartz describes. Isaac goes into the yard at around 12:45, seeing nothing....nobody except Schwartz claims to see Liz Stride after 12:45.

How that, Mike ?

If Liz was dead at 12:40, you must dismiss both Brown and Schwartz.

Amitiés,
David

I shouldnt be coming across like 12:40 is the mark David, because I do see this as a possible time period... I know I cant be sure who has their times spot on...and I have to assume that most dont. Its the block of time that gets me....a 20 minute block as the discrepancy.

My true underlying point is that the accounts Im presenting suggest a time far earlier than 1am for the discovery.

If Brown actually saw Liz at 12:40, and Issac was called closer to 12:45, I mean......Im not hoping for some synchronization or anything.

I just feel 20 minutes before Diemshutz version is a large error on Issac's part, and Spooner's tale sort of matches Isaac's timeframe, ....as would be his forgetting that he went out with Louis at around 1:03-04. And forgetting he met Spooner coming back....instead confusing that with his meeting up with Eagle.

How exactly this fits together is the reason I started this and am discussing it....if I had all the answers you'd know where to buy the book already.

My best regards David

[DVV]

David, if this happened around 12:40ish as Isaac and Spooner seem to suggest, there is no reason to discount Brown at all, and every reason to discount Israel.
My best regards all.

How that, Mike ?

If Liz was dead at 12:40, you must dismiss both Brown and Schwartz.

Amitiés,
David

Try this........

12:35- PC Smith sees Liz with a man
12:35-Spooner says he met with 2 men from the Club in the street
12:40-Lave says he was returning to his room in the yard after being in the yard and by the gates until roughly this time, saw no-one
12:40-Eagle says he returned, tried the front door, and entered via the yard, saw no-one
12:40-Isaac Kozebrodski says Louis Diemshutz called him in to the yard, alone
12:41-Isaac says Louis sent him to go for help, alone
12:40-45-Spooner's account says he is in the yard
12:45-James Brown says he saw Liz Stride with a man by the school, the man was leaning over her with her back to the wall and he heard some quiet conversation that included the woman saying "not tonight"
12:45-1:00am-Fanny Mortimer says she was out to her door and back inside off and on from this point until 1am. Sees no-one by the gates until 12:56am
12:45am to 12:56am-Fanny hears boots she thinks are police
12:45-Isaac says he returned to the yard alone, having met no-one
12:56-Fanny sees Goldstein pass hurriedly by after looking in the yard
Near 1:00am-Fanny hears a cart and horse
1:00-Louis Diemshutz says he pulled into the yard and discovered the body
1:01-Louis says he ran indoors and called upstairs for people to come and see.
1:01-1:02-Louis and Eagle say they and Isaac and some other men are first by the body
1:02-1:03-Louis says he and Isaac go running out towards Grove, Eagle says he heads out towards Commercial
1:05-Louis says he and Isaac meet Spooner on the street
1:06-Louis's timing has Spooner first arriving now
1:10-First police onsite
1:16-Blackwell arrives

.....you will notice that if you omit Israel Schwartz from that timeline, it works. Now at the risk of calling down the wrath of my peers I am going to suggest we try forgetting about Mr Schwartz, if only for a little while.

Reasons for this? Well nowhere else does anyone mention hearing this cry of 'Lipski' or any screams, and when you consider how close some people were, that is unusual. I also find it strange that a woman who has just been thrown to the ground, then gets up, walks into the yard and gets out some breath fresheners. I'm not trying to prove he was lying, just forget him for a while.

First of all, the position of Strides body in the yard makes it highly unlikely that anyone walking through the gate, and into the club via the side entrance, would have missed her,in fact walking that route means you almost fall over her. Walking past the yard you cannot see Strides body from the street, it is too dark. Without Schwartz, Liz dies sometime between 12:45 & 01:00, but as Tom points out, few people wore watches so accepting these times as exact is perhaps unwise.

The obvious fly in the ointment is Israel Schwartz, and not Louis Diemschutz who's testimony is corroborated by his wife. I have no idea why Police accepted Schwartz's statement when no other witness mentions this altercation, suggestions on a postcard please.

Thats good Sox, but we cant have Diemshutz arriving at 2 different times....is it 12:40, or 1am? And did he go with Isaac to find the police, or as Isaac says did he go at the behest of Diemshutz and later meet up with Eagle, not seeing Spooner?

Hunter, youll notice that Spooner says in the quote I posted that he left the pub on Commercial at midnight and he and his lass walked casually to the spot outside the Beehive, where for about 25 minutes he hung out. Thats 12:10 to 12:15 to get to the spot, plus approx 25 minutes equals around 12:40ish.

Tom, why would they move Diemshutz's cart into the yard, unless it was to unload it and then get it out of there, we know he stabled it elsewhere, he hadnt finished his night when he pulled in. Spooner doesnt mention cart or horse at all......and Fanny may have heard the cart and horse leaving, and misinterpreted which direction it went...she didnt see it.

David, if this happened around 12:40ish as Isaac and Spooner seem to suggest, there is no reason to discount Brown at all, and every reason to discount Israel. And I can say with some confidence that we will never learn that Spooner was actually a club member. The same I feel cannot be said for our Israel.

Since only Israel saw anything and anyone in front of the gates, and since Brown and Fanny did see that area around that time and saw nothing, one at the same time as Israel says he saw his gentile assault just outside the gates of the European Jews hooping it up inside.....we actually have more evidence,( 2 to 1), that suggests no-one saw anything in front of the gates after PC Smith saw Liz. Even Eagle who says he walked into the yard at 12:40 doesnt say he saw anyone near the gates. He doesnt even see Lave who he apparently shared the yard with at the time. In his defense, Lave doesnt see him either.

Israel Schwartz is I believe an attempt at sleight of hand, and my feeling is thats what kept him off the Inquest call sheet. But how could they have dodged suspicion so well without his input?

My best regards all.

[DVV]

As for DVV's suggestion that we strike Brown from the list, I strongly disagree.
Tom Wescott

The fact that I vote Schwartz rather than Brown is irrelevant here, I admit.
But I was merely questioning Mike's theory.
As far as I understand Mike, Diemshitzshutz was on the spot before the alleged sightings of Brown and Schwartz.
At some stage, one has to choose.

Amitiés,
David

[Sox]

Try this........

12:35- PC Smith sees Liz with a man
12:35-Spooner says he met with 2 men from the Club in the street
12:40-Lave says he was returning to his room in the yard after being in the yard and by the gates until roughly this time, saw no-one
12:40-Eagle says he returned, tried the front door, and entered via the yard, saw no-one
12:40-Isaac Kozebrodski says Louis Diemshutz called him in to the yard, alone
12:41-Isaac says Louis sent him to go for help, alone
12:40-45-Spooner's account says he is in the yard
12:45-James Brown says he saw Liz Stride with a man by the school, the man was leaning over her with her back to the wall and he heard some quiet conversation that included the woman saying "not tonight"
12:45-1:00am-Fanny Mortimer says she was out to her door and back inside off and on from this point until 1am. Sees no-one by the gates until 12:56am
12:45am to 12:56am-Fanny hears boots she thinks are police
12:45-Isaac says he returned to the yard alone, having met no-one
12:56-Fanny sees Goldstein pass hurriedly by after looking in the yard
Near 1:00am-Fanny hears a cart and horse
1:00-Louis Diemshutz says he pulled into the yard and discovered the body
1:01-Louis says he ran indoors and called upstairs for people to come and see.
1:01-1:02-Louis and Eagle say they and Isaac and some other men are first by the body
1:02-1:03-Louis says he and Isaac go running out towards Grove, Eagle says he heads out towards Commercial
1:05-Louis says he and Isaac meet Spooner on the street
1:06-Louis's timing has Spooner first arriving now
1:10-First police onsite
1:16-Blackwell arrives

.....you will notice that if you omit Israel Schwartz from that timeline, it works. Now at the risk of calling down the wrath of my peers I am going to suggest we try forgetting about Mr Schwartz, if only for a little while.

Reasons for this? Well nowhere else does anyone mention hearing this cry of 'Lipski' or any screams, and when you consider how close some people were, that is unusual. I also find it strange that a woman who has just been thrown to the ground, then gets up, walks into the yard and gets out some breath fresheners. I'm not trying to prove he was lying, just forget him for a while.

First of all, the position of Strides body in the yard makes it highly unlikely that anyone walking through the gate, and into the club via the side entrance, would have missed her,in fact walking that route means you almost fall over her. Walking past the yard you cannot see Strides body from the street, it is too dark. Without Schwartz, Liz dies sometime between 12:45 & 01:00, but as Tom points out, few people wore watches so accepting these times as exact is perhaps unwise.

The obvious fly in the ointment is Israel Schwartz, and not Louis Diemschutz who's testimony is corroborated by his wife. I have no idea why Police accepted Schwartz's statement when no other witness mentions this altercation, suggestions on a postcard please.

[Tom_Wescott]

Diemschutz left the pony and cart in front of the door, so they weren't immediately near the body. No doubt they were moved further to the back of the yard when the authorities arrived. Incidentally, Diemschutz stabled his pony in George Yard, but not that night, as he wasn't allowed to leave the premises until 5am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Hello Michael,

Interesting about the cart as no one mentions it in the testimony other than Louis, but since it was supposedly irrelevant after the body was found it may have just not been mentioned.

If the cart was leaving instead of coming when Mrs. Mortimer was supposed to have heard it( not a direct quote by the press) who was driving it? It seems that if it was Louis it would be impossible for him to get back in time for PC Lamb to arrive. Mrs. Mortimer is said to have heard the commotion just after she heard the cart ( again, not a direct quote).

Spooner also says in his inquest testimony that he and his girlfriend was standing outside the pub between 12:30 and 1. They had been there for about 25 minutes when they saw 2 jews running for help. He said that the police arrived at the club about the same time he did. This could put him in the right time frame of shortly after one- not that it rally matters as far as your thesis is concerned.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

I am repeating my question because I think Mrs. Mortimer saying that she heard the commotion right after she heard the cart is relevant to the theory that Michael is proposing.

Also, Michael, in your inquest testimony of Spooner's, you left out the beginning "Between half past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing...." My point is that he said he saw 2 jews about 25 minutes later, which could be more in line with 1 o'clock or thereabouts.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael,

I've already demonstrated how the evidence supports Diemschutz. Either you accept it or you don't.

As for DVV's suggestion that we strike Brown from the list, I strongly disagree. He seems an honest witness who believes he saw what he said he saw. His timing puts him at that spot right around 12:45. Whether or not he saw Stride is immaterial. He saw a couple, and if this wasn't Stride and a man, then it was Mortimer's young couple who she placed at the corner from before the murder until after. This couple saw and heard nothing strange. If this is correct, then the Schwartz escapade couldn't have happened. If the couple Brown saw was in fact Stride and a man, then the story turns in a different direction.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

Hi Mike,

I carefully read your post.
Sorry, but Fanny makes your theory unviable. How could she hear Diemshitzshutz Formula 1 leaving, but not arriving?
Not to repeat that Brown most probably never saw Liz.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

Hello all,

Having little time, I've only skimmed this thread, and don't pretend to understand most of it. But just to get a few things straight. Hardly anyone wore watches in the East End, and this includes policemen, so many will be way off in their timing. Edward Spooner was way off, and we know that, but we can fix his time from others.

A few minutes before one, Leon Goldstein says he went through Berner Street.
A few minutes before one, Fanny saw him, and said it was just a few minutes later she heard Diemschutz's cart pass by.
Diemschutz says he arrived at 1am and DID fix his time by a clock. This fits in perfectly with the evidence of Goldstein and Mortimer.
James Brown would have arrived home at around 12:50am and estimates it was about 15 minutes later (approx. 1:05am) when he heard the clubmen calling 'Murder'. Again, this supports Diemschutz's timing.

I hope it's obvious there's no reason to assume Diemschutz found the body any earlier than 1am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

To be factual Louis said what time he was and how he arrived at it...its not a fact. Neither is it a fact that Spooner was wrong when he said "I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove- street, and then turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard, adjoining the International Workmen's Club-house, and there saw a woman lying just inside the gate."

Diemshitz is in fact directly contradicted in Issac's version that he told the press when he said "About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom".[1]

And in the case of Louis Diemshitz and Israel Schwartz neither stories are verified by any corroboration.

If Isaac tells the truth to the press, since he is not, for some reason, called to the Inquest we cant be certain, but if he did, and Spooner did, Spooner and his lass would be at the Beehive perhaps by 10-15 past 12, and after 25 minutes or so of loitering, would have seen the 2 Jews going by at about the time Isaac says that he was sent out alone. Isaac doesnt mention seeing Spooner on the road.

Louis could have pulled in around 12:40am and later said he pulled in at 1am. Fanny could have heard the cart and horse being taken away, not arriving. And the boots might have belonged to Isaac. Goldstein might have been shooed along by the group of men near the gate...to explain "hurriedly".

If he did pull in when Isaac says he was called into the yard by him, which roughly matches the timing of Spooners encounter on the street, then Louis lied and all the members who were aware of an earlier arrival lied.

To avoid jail, suspicion of not only this murder but of being seen just like Andersons profile for Jack the Ripper, and the collapse of the club,...I could see it being pitched as a white lie for the sake of the club.

After all, I havent suggested that any member actually killed her....just that they were in no hurry to allow the appearances to kill their organization either.

Best regards Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

Timings and such

Hello all,

Having little time, I've only skimmed this thread, and don't pretend to understand most of it. But just to get a few things straight. Hardly anyone wore watches in the East End, and this includes policemen, so many will be way off in their timing. Edward Spooner was way off, and we know that, but we can fix his time from others.

A few minutes before one, Leon Goldstein says he went through Berner Street.
A few minutes before one, Fanny saw him, and said it was just a few minutes later she heard Diemschutz's cart pass by.
Diemschutz says he arrived at 1am and DID fix his time by a clock. This fits in perfectly with the evidence of Goldstein and Mortimer.
James Brown would have arrived home at around 12:50am and estimates it was about 15 minutes later (approx. 1:05am) when he heard the clubmen calling 'Murder'. Again, this supports Diemschutz's timing.

I hope it's obvious there's no reason to assume Diemschutz found the body any earlier than 1am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Hello Michael,

Interesting about the cart as no one mentions it in the testimony other than Louis, but since it was supposedly irrelevant after the body was found it may have just not been mentioned.

If the cart was leaving instead of coming when Mrs. Mortimer was supposed to have heard it( not a direct quote by the press) who was driving it? It seems that if it was Louis it would be impossible for him to get back in time for PC Lamb to arrive. Mrs. Mortimer is said to have heard the commotion just after she heard the cart ( again, not a direct quote).

Spooner also says in his inquest testimony that he and his girlfriend was standing outside the pub between 12:30 and 1. They had been there for about 25 minutes when they saw 2 jews running for help. He said that the police arrived at the club about the same time he did. This could put him in the right time frame of shortly after one- not that it rally matters as far as your thesis is concerned.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

My dear Mike,

I'm lost... More than ever...
At what time would you put the murder, and the (real, genuine, original) arrival of Diemshitzshutz?

Amitiés,
David

Hi David,

I think its possible by those timings that the reason Brown didnt see anyone outside the gates at 12:45am, nor Fanny when she was in and out by the door to the street, is that Liz Stride was out of view shortly after PC Smiths sighting.

The logical place for her to be then, considering the time, is already in the yard. That puts her in the yard roughly when Isaac says Louis called him to the yard from inside the Club, when Eagle says he arrived in the yard, and when Lave says he was still in the yard. It puts them all out of sight of Fanny and James Brown, and it allows roughly for Issac's time to have been accurate as to when he was sent out for help and then followed shortly thereafter by Diemshutz and someone, and then Eagle, running towards Commercial. That also allows for Spooner to be mistaken about his arrival time in the yard, but only by 5-7 minutes, not by more than 20. Which is coincidentally the same margin of error that Isaac would be guilty of if he was incorrect in his times.

The cart and horse........you and I know Louis pulls into the yard at some point, Fanny hears it....but does she hear it pulling into the yard, or heading off after being unloaded to where Louis actually stabled the set? Ask yourself this....Were the cart and horse still there when Spooner or the Police first arrive? Does Spooner mention it? Nope....instead he says about 15 people were standing around the body.....which means the cart and horse were one of 2 places....further in the yard, or off the property on their way to the stable. 15 people and the cart and horse could not be in that opening in a way that he could have missed them.

Blackwell's times include a murder at 12:46am....but what if he was too early by just 5 minutes for the earliest cut off time for the death stroke....pardon the pun. The next physician on site says he thought she was killed within the hour....he arrives around 1:30am....so that includes a time like the above scenario suggests.

Fanny sees Leon Goldstein with a Gladstone full of empty cigarette cartons walking towards the Club from Commercial Street,...he is a club member and some other club members that live in the cottages, who were cigarette makers said they were awake at that time. At 12:56 he is in front of the gates, looks in, and continues to walk hurriedly past. Was he bringing those cartons to the cigarette makers that were still awake and changed his mind based on what he sees when he looked in? Was he "shooed" along by some men standing just inside the gates?

Who are the boots that Fanny hears between 12:45am and 12:56am? Perhaps they are Isaac returning to the crime scene....because she only hears one set of boots.

Would Liz be standing inside a yard of a private Club just after 12:35am if she was the only one in the yard and it was pitch black in most places? I say no, she wouldnt. She would likely have wanted some people or at least one other person to have felt comfortable. But if she was in the yard before 12:40am, then she would have been in there by their own accounts with Eagle, Lave...and by Issac's statement, perhaps Louis as well. All men who dont see anyone....and one man who by his own account wasnt yet at Berner Street.

I think she met Eagle when he arrived, he took her into the yard to wait, leaving her with some "low men" that were often in that yard past 1am on Meeting nights...and while he was upstairs, he heard a woman was found just inside the gates, he assumed it might be Liz,...and he tumbled "pell-mell" down the stairs to see a bloody scene while at the same time being very afraid of the sight of blood. He only came running cause he thought he knew the woman,...the one he just left in the yard to wait for him...perhaps while he collected his speakers pay and said goodnight to the remaining members.

The above makes some sense to me anyway, it fits with some of the witnesses but not the ones we have relied on most for the "accurate" data, and it presents them with a situation that required damage control....I believe, some of that in the form of stories that create an empty yard until 1am.

Now David.....I hope Ive been clearer.

My best mon ami

[DVV]

My dear Mike,

I'm lost... More than ever...
At what time would you put the murder, and the (real, genuine, original) arrival of Diemshitzshutz?

Amitiés,
David