Timings at Dutfields Yard-From The IWMA thread

[DVV]

Hi Mike,

I carefully read your post.
Sorry, but Fanny makes your theory unviable. How could she hear Diemshitzshutz Formula 1 leaving, but not arriving?
Not to repeat that Brown most probably never saw Liz.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael,

I've already demonstrated how the evidence supports Diemschutz. Either you accept it or you don't.

As for DVV's suggestion that we strike Brown from the list, I strongly disagree. He seems an honest witness who believes he saw what he said he saw. His timing puts him at that spot right around 12:45. Whether or not he saw Stride is immaterial. He saw a couple, and if this wasn't Stride and a man, then it was Mortimer's young couple who she placed at the corner from before the murder until after. This couple saw and heard nothing strange. If this is correct, then the Schwartz escapade couldn't have happened. If the couple Brown saw was in fact Stride and a man, then the story turns in a different direction.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Hello Michael,

Interesting about the cart as no one mentions it in the testimony other than Louis, but since it was supposedly irrelevant after the body was found it may have just not been mentioned.

If the cart was leaving instead of coming when Mrs. Mortimer was supposed to have heard it( not a direct quote by the press) who was driving it? It seems that if it was Louis it would be impossible for him to get back in time for PC Lamb to arrive. Mrs. Mortimer is said to have heard the commotion just after she heard the cart ( again, not a direct quote).

Spooner also says in his inquest testimony that he and his girlfriend was standing outside the pub between 12:30 and 1. They had been there for about 25 minutes when they saw 2 jews running for help. He said that the police arrived at the club about the same time he did. This could put him in the right time frame of shortly after one- not that it rally matters as far as your thesis is concerned.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

I am repeating my question because I think Mrs. Mortimer saying that she heard the commotion right after she heard the cart is relevant to the theory that Michael is proposing.

Also, Michael, in your inquest testimony of Spooner's, you left out the beginning "Between half past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing...." My point is that he said he saw 2 jews about 25 minutes later, which could be more in line with 1 o'clock or thereabouts.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Tom_Wescott]

Diemschutz left the pony and cart in front of the door, so they weren't immediately near the body. No doubt they were moved further to the back of the yard when the authorities arrived. Incidentally, Diemschutz stabled his pony in George Yard, but not that night, as he wasn't allowed to leave the premises until 5am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sox]

Try this........

12:35- PC Smith sees Liz with a man
12:35-Spooner says he met with 2 men from the Club in the street
12:40-Lave says he was returning to his room in the yard after being in the yard and by the gates until roughly this time, saw no-one
12:40-Eagle says he returned, tried the front door, and entered via the yard, saw no-one
12:40-Isaac Kozebrodski says Louis Diemshutz called him in to the yard, alone
12:41-Isaac says Louis sent him to go for help, alone
12:40-45-Spooner's account says he is in the yard
12:45-James Brown says he saw Liz Stride with a man by the school, the man was leaning over her with her back to the wall and he heard some quiet conversation that included the woman saying "not tonight"
12:45-1:00am-Fanny Mortimer says she was out to her door and back inside off and on from this point until 1am. Sees no-one by the gates until 12:56am
12:45am to 12:56am-Fanny hears boots she thinks are police
12:45-Isaac says he returned to the yard alone, having met no-one
12:56-Fanny sees Goldstein pass hurriedly by after looking in the yard
Near 1:00am-Fanny hears a cart and horse
1:00-Louis Diemshutz says he pulled into the yard and discovered the body
1:01-Louis says he ran indoors and called upstairs for people to come and see.
1:01-1:02-Louis and Eagle say they and Isaac and some other men are first by the body
1:02-1:03-Louis says he and Isaac go running out towards Grove, Eagle says he heads out towards Commercial
1:05-Louis says he and Isaac meet Spooner on the street
1:06-Louis's timing has Spooner first arriving now
1:10-First police onsite
1:16-Blackwell arrives

.....you will notice that if you omit Israel Schwartz from that timeline, it works. Now at the risk of calling down the wrath of my peers I am going to suggest we try forgetting about Mr Schwartz, if only for a little while.

Reasons for this? Well nowhere else does anyone mention hearing this cry of 'Lipski' or any screams, and when you consider how close some people were, that is unusual. I also find it strange that a woman who has just been thrown to the ground, then gets up, walks into the yard and gets out some breath fresheners. I'm not trying to prove he was lying, just forget him for a while.

First of all, the position of Strides body in the yard makes it highly unlikely that anyone walking through the gate, and into the club via the side entrance, would have missed her,in fact walking that route means you almost fall over her. Walking past the yard you cannot see Strides body from the street, it is too dark. Without Schwartz, Liz dies sometime between 12:45 & 01:00, but as Tom points out, few people wore watches so accepting these times as exact is perhaps unwise.

The obvious fly in the ointment is Israel Schwartz, and not Louis Diemschutz who's testimony is corroborated by his wife. I have no idea why Police accepted Schwartz's statement when no other witness mentions this altercation, suggestions on a postcard please.

[DVV]

As for DVV's suggestion that we strike Brown from the list, I strongly disagree.
Tom Wescott

The fact that I vote Schwartz rather than Brown is irrelevant here, I admit.
But I was merely questioning Mike's theory.
As far as I understand Mike, Diemshitzshutz was on the spot before the alleged sightings of Brown and Schwartz.
At some stage, one has to choose.

Amitiés,
David

[perrymason]

Try this........

12:35- PC Smith sees Liz with a man
12:35-Spooner says he met with 2 men from the Club in the street
12:40-Lave says he was returning to his room in the yard after being in the yard and by the gates until roughly this time, saw no-one
12:40-Eagle says he returned, tried the front door, and entered via the yard, saw no-one
12:40-Isaac Kozebrodski says Louis Diemshutz called him in to the yard, alone
12:41-Isaac says Louis sent him to go for help, alone
12:40-45-Spooner's account says he is in the yard
12:45-James Brown says he saw Liz Stride with a man by the school, the man was leaning over her with her back to the wall and he heard some quiet conversation that included the woman saying "not tonight"
12:45-1:00am-Fanny Mortimer says she was out to her door and back inside off and on from this point until 1am. Sees no-one by the gates until 12:56am
12:45am to 12:56am-Fanny hears boots she thinks are police
12:45-Isaac says he returned to the yard alone, having met no-one
12:56-Fanny sees Goldstein pass hurriedly by after looking in the yard
Near 1:00am-Fanny hears a cart and horse
1:00-Louis Diemshutz says he pulled into the yard and discovered the body
1:01-Louis says he ran indoors and called upstairs for people to come and see.
1:01-1:02-Louis and Eagle say they and Isaac and some other men are first by the body
1:02-1:03-Louis says he and Isaac go running out towards Grove, Eagle says he heads out towards Commercial
1:05-Louis says he and Isaac meet Spooner on the street
1:06-Louis's timing has Spooner first arriving now
1:10-First police onsite
1:16-Blackwell arrives

.....you will notice that if you omit Israel Schwartz from that timeline, it works. Now at the risk of calling down the wrath of my peers I am going to suggest we try forgetting about Mr Schwartz, if only for a little while.

Reasons for this? Well nowhere else does anyone mention hearing this cry of 'Lipski' or any screams, and when you consider how close some people were, that is unusual. I also find it strange that a woman who has just been thrown to the ground, then gets up, walks into the yard and gets out some breath fresheners. I'm not trying to prove he was lying, just forget him for a while.

First of all, the position of Strides body in the yard makes it highly unlikely that anyone walking through the gate, and into the club via the side entrance, would have missed her,in fact walking that route means you almost fall over her. Walking past the yard you cannot see Strides body from the street, it is too dark. Without Schwartz, Liz dies sometime between 12:45 & 01:00, but as Tom points out, few people wore watches so accepting these times as exact is perhaps unwise.

The obvious fly in the ointment is Israel Schwartz, and not Louis Diemschutz who's testimony is corroborated by his wife. I have no idea why Police accepted Schwartz's statement when no other witness mentions this altercation, suggestions on a postcard please.

Thats good Sox, but we cant have Diemshutz arriving at 2 different times....is it 12:40, or 1am? And did he go with Isaac to find the police, or as Isaac says did he go at the behest of Diemshutz and later meet up with Eagle, not seeing Spooner?

Hunter, youll notice that Spooner says in the quote I posted that he left the pub on Commercial at midnight and he and his lass walked casually to the spot outside the Beehive, where for about 25 minutes he hung out. Thats 12:10 to 12:15 to get to the spot, plus approx 25 minutes equals around 12:40ish.

Tom, why would they move Diemshutz's cart into the yard, unless it was to unload it and then get it out of there, we know he stabled it elsewhere, he hadnt finished his night when he pulled in. Spooner doesnt mention cart or horse at all......and Fanny may have heard the cart and horse leaving, and misinterpreted which direction it went...she didnt see it.

David, if this happened around 12:40ish as Isaac and Spooner seem to suggest, there is no reason to discount Brown at all, and every reason to discount Israel. And I can say with some confidence that we will never learn that Spooner was actually a club member. The same I feel cannot be said for our Israel.

Since only Israel saw anything and anyone in front of the gates, and since Brown and Fanny did see that area around that time and saw nothing, one at the same time as Israel says he saw his gentile assault just outside the gates of the European Jews hooping it up inside.....we actually have more evidence,( 2 to 1), that suggests no-one saw anything in front of the gates after PC Smith saw Liz. Even Eagle who says he walked into the yard at 12:40 doesnt say he saw anyone near the gates. He doesnt even see Lave who he apparently shared the yard with at the time. In his defense, Lave doesnt see him either.

Israel Schwartz is I believe an attempt at sleight of hand, and my feeling is thats what kept him off the Inquest call sheet. But how could they have dodged suspicion so well without his input?

My best regards all.

[DVV]

David, if this happened around 12:40ish as Isaac and Spooner seem to suggest, there is no reason to discount Brown at all, and every reason to discount Israel.
My best regards all.

How that, Mike ?

If Liz was dead at 12:40, you must dismiss both Brown and Schwartz.

Amitiés,
David

[perrymason]

How that, Mike ?

If Liz was dead at 12:40, you must dismiss both Brown and Schwartz.

Amitiés,
David

I shouldnt be coming across like 12:40 is the mark David, because I do see this as a possible time period... I know I cant be sure who has their times spot on...and I have to assume that most dont. Its the block of time that gets me....a 20 minute block as the discrepancy.

My true underlying point is that the accounts Im presenting suggest a time far earlier than 1am for the discovery.

If Brown actually saw Liz at 12:40, and Issac was called closer to 12:45, I mean......Im not hoping for some synchronization or anything.

I just feel 20 minutes before Diemshutz version is a large error on Issac's part, and Spooner's tale sort of matches Isaac's timeframe, ....as would be his forgetting that he went out with Louis at around 1:03-04. And forgetting he met Spooner coming back....instead confusing that with his meeting up with Eagle.

How exactly this fits together is the reason I started this and am discussing it....if I had all the answers you'd know where to buy the book already.

My best regards David

[Sox]

Israel Schwartz is I believe an attempt at sleight of hand, and my feeling is thats what kept him off the Inquest call sheet. But how could they have dodged suspicion so well without his input?

Or.....the Police had discredited his statement of course, which is by far the simpler explanation Mike. Yet another reason why we dearly wish that we had all of the Police records/notes/papers from 1888.

Personally I always leave his statement out. (which is why I suggested trying it) Mortimer is in and out of her door and could easily miss a couple going into the yard, but it is unlikely she would miss the scene that Schwartz describes. Isaac goes into the yard at around 12:45, seeing nothing....nobody except Schwartz claims to see Liz Stride after 12:45.

[perrymason]

Or.....the Police had discredited his statement of course, which is by far the simpler explanation Mike. Yet another reason why we dearly wish that we had all of the Police records/notes/papers from 1888.

Personally I always leave his statement out. (which is why I suggested trying it) Mortimer is in and out of her door and could easily miss a couple going into the yard, but it is unlikely she would miss the scene that Schwartz describes. Isaac goes into the yard at around 12:45, seeing nothing....nobody except Schwartz claims to see Liz Stride after 12:45.

I wont belabour the point Sox, suffice to say your last line supports the "time period" of the event that I was suggesting....at least 15 minutes before Louis says he arrived.

If Liz isn't outside the gates at 12:40-45, she was probably inside them. If she is outside the gates during those 5 minutes, Isaac and Spooner need only be off by a few minutes and Brown can be correct....if he also is allowed that lenience. Maybe he saw her a few minutes earlier.

But neither Spooner nor Isaac need be off by 20 minutes....which they both are by Louis's statement. Since Louis is the steward, think he might have prevented Isaac from giving those times and that story at the Inquest? Sure would have contradicted him.

And where exactly was that Israel fella when we needed him on the stand?

Best regards

[Sox]

To tell the truth I think all that is going on here is that Spooner gets the time wrong in his testimony, but gets it right in his statement, and that Kozebrodsky's press interview was poorly conducted.

Morris Eagle is basically the cement in this wall.

[DVV]

How exactly this fits together is the reason I started this and am discussing it....if I had all the answers you'd know where to buy the book already.

Exactly, Mike,

so let's go ahead and we'll see if it works or not.
You believe in different timings, suspect club members, and are ready to dismiss some witnesses.
Come on...
Let's get Schwartz out, for the sake of discussion.
And still we have to choose between Koz and Brown.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[perrymason]

Exactly, Mike,

so let's go ahead and we'll see if it works or not.
You believe in different timings, suspect club members, and are ready to dismiss some witnesses.
Come on...
Let's get Schwartz out, for the sake of discussion.
And still we have to choose between Koz and Brown.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

I'm reluctant to spoil the broth with some "root of Israel" David, ......for a few reasons.

1. Its possible Israel was affilated with the Club or attended the meeting, based on the weak premise of his reason for being there at that time, his ethnic and social match with the members inside, and its possible William "Woolf" Wess may have translated for him, something he does for a fellow member Leon Goldstein on Tuesday night I believe. Thats courtesy of Toms research I believe.
2. If Israel was where he said he was and what he said happened did, Brown would certainly have seen at least a portion of that event and Fanny even may have heard or seen it, but neither heard or saw anything of Israel, BSM or Pipeman.
3. Israel Schwartz is not recorded as being a witness who testifies at the Elizabeth Stride Inquest.
4. There are no documents that suggest his testimony was in any way suppressed, as is documented in the case of Lawende.
5. We have a press article shortly after he came forward that suggests the Police did not "wholly" believe his story.
6. If Israel was correct, then Issac was wrong, Spooner was wrong, Brown wasnt in a position to see the gates, and the yell "Lipski" must have been quiet enough to have been missed by Fanny.
7. No-one corroborates this story.
8. Any reflection in police correspondence regarding this witness from this point on concerns the call of "Lipski"...the only element of his story they continued to debate. Not the assault. Because they had a theory that involved the killers ethnicity at that time, and a Gentile as BSM alias Jack didnt work.

If you use the press accounts of PC Smith and Isaac and Spooner and Brown and Fanny....and allow for a 5 minute window on either side of their time as an error allowance....the multi-sided story fits roughly together. All that's needed is for Brown to have been slightly too late in his time, actually.

I would rather piece together information from witness sources that I can be fairly certain would have no impetus to protect the club or its members.....and when the people mentioned above fit into a continuous fluid storyline that has Liz out of sight shortly after Smith saw her...I believe that suggests that she was out of sight when Israel says he saw the "altercation".

IF- Louis actually arrived near 12:40-45, and Brown saw Liz at 12:40-45, the stories of the aforementioned witnesses work as a timeline.....which raises the interesting idea that AP once put forth about this murder, that it was caused accidentally.

My best regards David

[Tom_Wescott]

It's not far-fetched to expect a clubmember. That's certainly not the most farfetched thing Mike has suggested. After all, her body was found in their yard, and socialist/anarchist clubs attract some dangerous characters. I've suggested Morris Eagle as a possible BS Man, but I don't think he killed Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott