Timings at Dutfields Yard-From The IWMA thread

Hi Michael,

I think the cart not being mentioned is just that there was more going on at that time than for witnesses to keep up with a cart and pony - a given, so to speak.

But in regards to the other points you have made I'm inclined to believe that you are on to something that is worth further study and that's why yet another witness that gives an earlier time is interesting. Of course I've been out at night (in my younger days) and lost track of time- with or without a watch.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

I know what you mean about looking for exact times in these statements, the only one Im sure was accurate was Blackwell....he was the first guy onsite with a watch on.

But in general terms,....would you feel the difference of a 4 or 5 minute interval vs a 20 minute interval? My thinking is I would certainly be able to distinguish a 5 minute span from a 20 minute one...even if not exactly to the minute.

And what we have is this......we now have 3 witnesses who said they were altered to the murder inside the gates from 15 to 20 minutes before Diemshitz says he even pulled into the yard.

I can see any of the 3 being off by 5 minutes....I cannot see all 3 of them being wrong by 15-20 minutes.

Which they must be if Louis's time was accurate. I think 3 to 1 so far says he wasnt.

My best regards Hunter

[Hunter]

Hi Michael,

I think the cart not being mentioned is just that there was more going on at that time than for witnesses to keep up with a cart and pony - a given, so to speak.

But in regards to the other points you have made I'm inclined to believe that you are on to something that is worth further study and that's why yet another witness that gives an earlier time is interesting. Of course I've been out at night (in my younger days) and lost track of time- with or without a watch.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

Hi Michael,

That's exactly right, except, the police whistle suggest that they had already been summoned.

What did you think about the paper's opinion of Eagles? They don't seem to place him in a good light and coupled with what you've posted before about his activities, it seems strange.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

We dont actually know who blew that whistle.

Eagle.....I think his story is odd frankly Hunter....he states he might not have seen the woman when he entered the yard at 12:40, and that he had his hand on the club wall to guide him in the dark to the door. The obvious point there, he would know whether a body was there, there would be no need for him to hedge...he would have had to step over the body. The fear of blood yet running down to see the body....he offers no reason why he took his date home and then returned...he was the speaker and as such affiliated directly with the club.

Where is the cart and horse after Louis find the body? If he arrived when he said then with the police arriving by 12:10ish, it would be in the street or further back in Dutfields Yard. Yet no-one mentions that cart and horse being there at all. And we know he didnt stable it there.

I think its starting to become apparent that there was a potential for club witnesses to offer times that suited their need for "innocence" in this matter....and that they may have had that time.

If Louis can be proven to have lied....and we now have 3 witnesses whose timings say he did....then we may want to look at Israels ties to that club...if they existed.

No-one knows at this point in time.

Best regards Hunter

[Hunter]

Hi Hunter,

That account from Mr Heshberg suggests a time for Liz to be found dead in keeping with 2 other witnesses....all whose times suggest that Liz was already dead inside the gates at approx 12:40-12:45am.

The only 2 people who dont work with that scenario....are Louis and Israel. Israel is personna non grata at the inquest, and Louis holds the most senior position at the club when the murder is discovered.

You pointed to a 3rd witness account that suggests Liz was found at least 15 minutes before Louis says he pulled in. And one witness says he took instructions from Louis himself to go for help at around 12:40am..while by the dead woman.

Best regards Hunter.

Hi Michael,

That's exactly right, except, the police whistle suggest that they had already been summoned.

What did you think about the paper's opinion of Eagles? They don't seem to place him in a good light and coupled with what you've posted before about his activities, it seems strange.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

Hello Michael,

I don't necessarily agree because Louis' testimony is evidence and the others that arrive on the scene soon after suggest a very recent kill ( warm body, blood still flowing from wound...etc ) so an interuption is plausable though not proveable.

But, this post is not to pick a bone with you but to offer something than you may or may not have read in relation to timings and Stride's murder.- from the Evening News- Oct. 1, 1888-'Abraham Heshburg, a young fellow, living at 28, Berner-street, said: "Yes, I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. ' That might not mean much since its not inquest testimony but he seemed to get the time off after the body was found. Maybe no watch?

Another thing in the same article relates to Eagle -'The next person whose information we intend to place before our readers in[is] Morris Eagle. He is likewise a member of this club, which has attained a notoriety hardly enviable.' I wonder what they had heard about this man. Doesn't sound like a well respected individual.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

Hi Hunter,

That account from Mr Heshberg suggests a time for Liz to be found dead in keeping with 2 other witnesses....all whose times suggest that Liz was already dead inside the gates at approx 12:40-12:45am.

The only 2 people who dont work with that scenario....are Louis and Israel. Israel is personna non grata at the inquest, and Louis holds the most senior position at the club when the murder is discovered.

You pointed to a 3rd witness account that suggests Liz was found at least 15 minutes before Louis says he pulled in. And one witness says he took instructions from Louis himself to go for help at around 12:40am..while by the dead woman.

Best regards Hunter.

[Hunter]

What we do know is that the only evidence there is suggests that the act performed on Liz was the only one intended...

Hello Michael,

I don't necessarily agree because Louis' testimony is evidence and the others that arrive on the scene soon after suggest a very recent kill ( warm body, blood still flowing from wound...etc ) so an interuption is plausable though not proveable.

But, this post is not to pick a bone with you but to offer something than you may or may not have read in relation to timings and Stride's murder.- from the Evening News- Oct. 1, 1888-'Abraham Heshburg, a young fellow, living at 28, Berner-street, said: "Yes, I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. ' That might not mean much since its not inquest testimony but he seemed to get the time off after the body was found. Maybe no watch?

Another thing in the same article relates to Eagle -'The next person whose information we intend to place before our readers in[is] Morris Eagle. He is likewise a member of this club, which has attained a notoriety hardly enviable.' I wonder what they had heard about this man. Doesn't sound like a well respected individual.

Best Wishes,
Hunter

I came across an interesting bit in Philip Sugden's book while re-reading it last night.

Does anyone know who was sent to get Wess after the body was discovered?

He says he left at around 12:15am, and I dont know how far away he lived, but Lamb says that after doing his preliminary investigating he came up to Wess and Phillips standing by the body.

Best regards all.

What we do know is that the only evidence there is suggests that the act performed on Liz was the only one intended, and that it may have been a very brief event....as short as 2 seconds. So that is a very reasonable scenario for a flash of anger....and yes, cd,....people become murderers in that quick a time frame sometimes....but perhaps this man was accustomed to being dangerous anyway.

Again, I do not see any reason to assume a club member killed her, or anyone she jilted recently, or may have recently taken up with....Liz was a seasoned street prostitute since she was registered as being one in Gothenburg when she was 25 or 26, and was likely seen soliciting by men in the area when she did so. She may have been that night, though the evidence suggests otherwise.

She got out of trouble by seeming to be as tough as the men she dealt with....its possible she found one who didnt like "no" for an answer. Of how she said it.

If Eagle did meet up with her at 12:40 that might have been her date....but not likely her killer. If he left her alone in the yard to go inside by himself....then we may have the proverbial hen in the wolfs den.

The yard often had people in in past 1am as was stated by neighbors, this evening had a rain that ended around the time the meeting did, which means that no environmental reason kept them out of the yard after that meeting.....and we have witnesses that said the singing was heard, how do we know all the voices heard were from inside the club?

I dont know what your point was with the word you placed beside mine in your post Tom, but based on past experience Im assuming that you either wish to take credit for an idea that has been posted as something you thought of long before said post, or that you feel I have been inconsistent in my opinion of the actual events and the clubs potential need for whitewashing.

Im sure youll let me know which it is so I can address it.

Best regards all.

[DVV]

Agreed again, indeed.
Twice divorced.
Too risky.

Amitiés,
David

[Tom_Wescott]

No, Kidney is not known to have a violent history. I just meant he had a motive in terms of he was Stride's beau. Like I said on the Wallace thread, 'marriage in itself is a motive for murder', and although those two hadn't been married, they did have a storym 3-years together.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

Agreed too.
I'm even not sure that Kidney had a motive.
He could have, ie, if indeed he could be that much infuriated by Liz.
But we don't know.
Has he killed one of his girlfriends, before or after Liz ?

Amitiés,
David

[c.d.]

Meaning if we don't know the killer, we don't know the motive. I can think of several different reasons someone might have killed Stride, but only one guy did. Kidney had motive, but no opportunity. Le Grand had both, but that by itself isn't 'proof'. The Ripper certainly had both AND the inclination, which is why he must remain the primary suspect in the murder of Stride. Yet, modern revisionism removes Stride and Kelly from the Ripper's tally, though none of these revisionists can seem to offer up viable alternatives to who their killer was. If they can't point to someone and provide an argument why he's more likely than the Ripper, then I don't see why they bother at all.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Well said and an excellent point.

c.d.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Meaning if we don't know the killer, we don't know the motive. I can think of several different reasons someone might have killed Stride, but only one guy did. Kidney had motive, but no opportunity. Le Grand had both, but that by itself isn't 'proof'. The Ripper certainly had both AND the inclination, which is why he must remain the primary suspect in the murder of Stride. Yet, modern revisionism removes Stride and Kelly from the Ripper's tally, though none of these revisionists can seem to offer up viable alternatives to who their killer was. If they can't point to someone and provide an argument why he's more likely than the Ripper, then I don't see why they bother at all.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Tom,

Motive is incidental? Explain please.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi DVD, CD and Floppy (Michael),

I'd just point out that potential killers and serious suspects aren't one and the same thing.

Kidney ceased being a 'serious suspect' in early October, 1888, yet some still believe he killed Stride. This is mainly due to a mountain of misinformation that has been collected about him. Right here on our own Casebook it says Kidney used to keep Stride locked in their rooms with a padlock. This never, ever happened. That's just one example.

Regarding what CD says, I think motive is incidental.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott