saving Liz Stride

[Tom_Wescott]

Schwartz

It would be very helpful if he could be linked to the club. But I am aware of the argument that, as a Hungarian, he would not likely have affiliated with a club with a Russian flavour. Of course, I cannot pronounce on that one.

Who is making this argument? Although the club was primarily Jewish, you did not have to be a Jew to attend or join. And you certainly didn't have to be a Russian. Not many know this, but my research has turned up that on the evening of the murder, the club meetings were largely attended by Germans.

And of course their comment on Israel is interesting....."The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted."

Not only that, but the next day the Star reported that a man had been arrested on Schwartz's information, but was let go. It also mentioned that the police had no intentions of acting further on Schwartz's information unless it could be corroborated. Schwartz then disappears from the newspaper record except for a conversation that an Echo reporter had with William Wess, the secretary of the Berner Street club. Wess was aware of Schwartz's story, which is pretty remarkable, but made the statement that he couldn't remember the guy's name and he wasn't a member of the club. It's important to remember that probably only 10% of the people who attended the club regularly were actually members, so I'm not surprised to hear that Schwartz wasn't. Wess was talking in semantics.

Israel Schwartz was living on Berner Street until the day of the murder when he moved to Ellen Street. He had spent the day out hawking and was walking through Berner Street to see if his wife had gotten everything out of their old digs. He was walking on the same side of the street as the club, so we can assume he lived on that side of the street. He came to a stop at the gates of Dutfield's Yard where his way would have been blocked by BS Man and Liz. When things got ugly he walked to the other side of the street to get away from them. He was a young Jewish immigrant who couldn't speak English living on a small street where there happened to be a club devoted to young Jewish immigrants. They also providing cheap or free housing to immigrants while they looked for their own place. Joseph Lave, inquest witness, was an American Jew staying temporarily at the club. Schwartz was described as dressing like a theatrical man, so we can safely assume he wasn't Hassidic. To my mind, it's inescapable that he was associated with the club. Nevertheless, it won't become a fact unless we have a document associating him either with the club or with one of their unions.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

I think you make some good points regarding Israel Tom, and I think you pointing out the fact that the meeting nights were a combination of dues paying members and new Immigrants who might be converted to Socialism based on their experiences in the East End for one....means Israel may just have attended the meeting without formal affiliation.

The only lasting effect he seems to have on anyone are the thoughts expressed in later memorandums by the police...and it seems to me, the question of the meaning of the "Lipski" remark is the issue that is discussed, not the alleged accosting....which in investigative terms, had potentially far more meaning in the question of who may have murdered her. They seemed to dwell on the probable ethnicity of the man who yelled at Schwartz.

Which makes some sense because after September, according to Anderson, the house to house searches apparently confirmed their suspicions that the murderer was a Polish immigrant Jew living with relatives in the East End. If Lipski was an ethnic slur like Abberline thought, and not an Orthodox/Reformer issue,....then the man seen accosting Liz just before she dies was gentile or intentionally representing himself as such by using that slur.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Perry,

I'm not sure what you mean about the anti-Semtism. Of course, policemen carry with them their own biases, as do we all. Some are better at seperated these biases from their professional duties than others, but I could not agree that Scotland Yard as an entity was anti-Semitic at all. In fact, Sir Charles Warren as of Oct. 12th felt there was no way in hell the Ripper could have been a Jew. I can't agree with that, because 30% of the population of that area was Jewish.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cap'n Jack]

Tom, I'm an Englishman. I walk past an English Workingman's Club twice a day but I'm not a member and have never been in there as a visitor.
Are Jews different?
So like if they walk past a Jewish Club they must be a member or at least a part time visitor?
Shine on Israel.

[perrymason]

Tom, I'm an Englishman. I walk past an English Workingman's Club twice a day but I'm not a member and have never been in there as a visitor.
Are Jews different?
So like if they walk past a Jewish Club they must be a member or at least a part time visitor?
Shine on Israel.

I think in this particular case AP, if a poor Jewish Man is passing by some gates to a poor Jewish Mens Club that was active at 12:45am, its within the realm of possibility it was because he left via the front door.

That wonder is supplemented by a moving story that had to be fiction....based on what people like Israel would actually own and have to move...so its fair to look a bit sideways at him......seeing as his important sighting is not even presented at the Inquest.

My best regards AP

[Tom_Wescott]

The Berner Street club offered cheap or free temporary lodgings to recent immigrants while they sought a more permanent address. Naturally, they would also try to recruit them into their cause. Israel Schwartz was a recent Jewish immigrant, living on Berner Street until the day of the murder. The Berner Street Club is the most logical place for him to have been living. I don't believe he was a member. Most attendees weren't. William Wess knew about the Schwartz story before almost anyone else. There's no hard evidence Schwartz was affiliated with the club, so I'm careful to say it's only a possibility at this point. One day his name will turn up alongside William Wess and we'll have our answer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Roy Corduroy]

The Berner Street club offered cheap or free temporary lodgings to recent immigrants while they sought a more permanent address. Naturally, they would also try to recruit them into their cause. Israel Schwartz was a recent Jewish immigrant, living on Berner Street until the day of the murder. The Berner Street Club is the most logical place for him to have been living.

Schwartz had a wife and three year old daughter. He didn't live at the club.

Roy

[lynn cates]

temp

Hello Mike and Tom. Is the suggestion that Schwartz was lodging at the club on a very temporary basis whilst moving?

The best chaps.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Schwartz had a wife and three year old daughter. He didn't live at the club.

Many of the people living at the club had kids. I don't see your point.

Lynn,

Yes, that's why Joseph Lave, an American Jew, was staying at the club. They offered temporary logdings to recent immigrants while they found a more permanent address.

Yours truly

Tom Wescott

[Roy Corduroy]

Many of the people living at the club had kids.

Who had kids living there at the club with them?

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Tom. Thanks. That would make a 1 or 2 night stay a logical thing to do, irrespective of his somewhat different country of origin.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Just so my position is clear,.....I believe that Israel may have attended that meeting and that due to his ability to play characters on stage,...(theatrical in appearance...), he was chosen to provide the police with a story that had a probable Gentile as an aggressor seen with her just before her murder. I believe the Club saw an opportunity to at least briefly take the suspicions off the local immigrant Jews.....as Anderson clearly suggests the police position was at that time.

I dont see a need for him to have been lodging there, nor would his story make any sense if he was.

Best regards all

[lynn cates]

OK

Hello Mike. Now I get you. They needed a convincing delivery?

How long was it after the murder before his story popped up? Was it a day or two?

The best.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

Many of the people living at the club had kids. I don't see your point.

No I don't see your point, Tom.

Immediately after the murder, the police sealed off the premises for a thorough search and questioning of the people there. And they surely made a list of those people. If Schwartz and his family are living there, his wife and daughter are on that list. We seem to have no indication from a police report or newspaper clipping that he was "Israel Schwartz, a man residing at the club with his wife and daughter."

Roy

[Tom_Wescott]

Roy,

Go back and read the Star report and Swanson's summary of Schwartz's evidence. Schwartz had just moved from Bener Street THAT VERY DAY to his residence in Ellen Street. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott