The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[John Bennett]

Why cant we believe anything John Bennett says?

Is he an Anarchist? or worse a school teacher?

Not an anarchist. But I was a school teacher. Your point being?

[Tom_Wescott]

School teachers are the men that will not be blamed for nothing.

By the way, speaking of Albert Bachert, he sued Lewis Lyons and the IWEC in 1885. He made his first public appearance in connection with the Ripper murders on the day following the double event with his 'Three Tuns' story. Hmmmm. Perhaps he was just giving himself an alibi?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

Who said the cops were involved in a conspiracy to keep Jack free? There was no such person as Jack.

Come on!

Regards,

Simon

[Chris]

All I can tell you is that Stride's murderer wasn't someone known as JtR who, interrupted by a Jewish pedlar, skulked off scraping his knuckles along the pavement to Mitre Square where he murdered Catherine Eddowes.

I suspect I'm going to regret asking this, but why do you refer to Schwartz as a "pedlar"?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Chris,

It was the first word that sprang to mind.

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

I suspect I'm going to regret asking this, but why do you refer to Schwartz as a "pedlar"?

I thought Simon was referring to Louis Diemschutz - if not quite a pedlar (he had a horse, not a bicycle, after all ) he was at least a hawker of cheap jewellery, sans shop.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Chris,

Sorry. I was talking about Diemschitz being a pedlar. Thank goodness Sam was paying attention.

Regards,

Simon

[Chris]

Sorry. I was talking about Diemschitz being a pedlar. Thank goodness Sam was paying attention.

Oh, I see. At least I was right about one thing, though.

[Jeff Leahy]

Not an anarchist. But I was a school teacher. Your point being?

Conspiracy theories aren’t about ‘points’ they are about implications. Usually imagined implications, as I’ve never come across one that holds any water.

Pirate

[perrymason]

Hello all,

I guess Im getting lost with the plot formation here,....we have the Pipeman and BSM identified as detectives, and Schwartz as a pedlar happening by? turns out Packer did sell Liz and a Toff some grapes, and that means if Jack killed her he's a Toff, and Brown must have seen other people....and why is this likely again? Do The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen make an appearance at some point?

A murder which by action alone could have been committed by anyone with a knife and a mean disposition was committed on anarchist Socialists property on an active night when some 28 people were still in attendance from the close to 200 that were there earlier.

Any "conspiracy" theory need only address that fact.

Self preservation is the logical and simple to execute proposition here, all witness testimony from club associated persons suggested no club attendee could have done this since none were around. Schwartz is only strongly supported in a reminiscence, and has no Inquest witness creds, so the reality is his story is unsupported formally, even if supported informally.

What is the issue to any theory is where did the man come from....was he Mr Grapes, or was he Broadshouldered Man....was he a club attendee, a returning Pipeman, or even Jack.....

Since this murder is atypical of a Ripper murder I dont know that inserting a Ripper type suspect high on the probability charts is warranted or wise. If Schwartz didnt lie....its likely BSM...she is cut by 12:56 at the latest...if he lied, which the Inquest suggests is possible, since he wasnt involved at all,....then it just has to be someone as close to the time as BSM was....and thats Browns man.

This is always the most debated murder, the least likely Ripper murder, and the one that has an obvious motive for enhancing the position of the club with the most relevant evidence given almost exclusively by people connected with the club.

Best regards

[perrymason]

Hello all,

I guess Im getting lost with the plot formation here,....we have the Pipeman and BSM identified as detectives, and Schwartz as a pedlar happening by? turns out Packer did sell Liz and a Toff some grapes, and that means if Jack killed her he's a Toff, and Brown must have seen other people....and why is this likely again? Do The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen make an appearance at some point?

A murder which by action alone could have been committed by anyone with a knife and a mean disposition was committed on anarchist Socialists property on an active night when some 28 people were still in attendance from the close to 200 that were there earlier.

Any "conspiracy" theory need only address that fact.

Self preservation is the logical and simple to execute proposition here, all witness testimony from club associated persons suggested no club attendee could have done this since none were around. Schwartz is only strongly supported in a reminiscence, and has no Inquest witness creds, so the reality is his story is unsupported formally, even if supported informally.

What is the issue to any theory is where did the man come from....was he Mr Grapes, or was he Broadshouldered Man....was he a club attendee, a returning Pipeman, or even Jack.....

Since this murder is atypical of a Ripper murder I dont know that inserting a Ripper type suspect high on the probability charts is warranted or wise. This is always the most debated murder, the least likely Ripper murder, and the one that has an obvious opportunity and motive built in for enhancing the position of the club with the most relevant evidence given almost exclusively by people connected with the club.

Best regards

[The Good Michael]

Since this murder is atypical of a Ripper murder I dont know that inserting a Ripper type suspect high on the probability charts is warranted or wise.
Best regards

That depends. A Polish Jew suspect who is also a radical, would fit in well here. We really don't have many valid suspects anyway. Hutchinson is invalid and doesn't fit here. Fleming is invalid and doesn't fit. Tumblety doesn't fit anywhere, and neither does Druitt or Chapman. All this is my opinion of course. A Cohen type, which is one of the most believable of the archetypes, does fit here. And let's not quibble over who was eating out of gutters when. We all know that argument and how easy it has been to counter it.

The point is, it shouldn't be about a conspiracy to commit murder, but rather, a conspiracy of damage control, much as in any organization. And so, is it really conspiracy, or just general practice in many organizations?

Cheers,

Mike

[Ben]

Hutchinson is invalid and doesn't fit here. Fleming is invalid and doesn't fit. Tumblety doesn't fit anywhere, and neither does Druitt or Chapman.

I'm afraid I've lost you here, Mike.

Why are any of these suspects any less "valid" or "fitting" for the Stride murder than the generic "Polish Jew" suspect?

Cheers,
Ben

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,

I agree a Polish Jew would jive nicely with all the authority speculation that one of them was Jack as support....and maybe there were a bunch at the meeting and hanging around. Again, I still dont see how this murder can be equated with Ripper murders though.

I agree with you, the conspiracy if it existed was a damage control conspiracy...a very logical one and maybe even defensible and justifiable if they knew it was not anyone that was attending the club that night.

When you have a murder that could very easily be the result of a spat with a thug, and you have 2 stories that may introduce intimidating persons just before the victim is murdered,....with Brown or Schwartz,... theres no need for Jack to suddenly pop in, cut once and run off to Mitre Square. There is a need to figure out which man is likely the man last seen with Liz,...was BSM really just BS? Was Browns man the likely man?

The only way this murder was Jacks is an interruption, and accepting Schwartz's statement or not, the doc says she was cut by 12:56...and that makes any possible interruption on Goldsteins pass, not with Diemshutz 4 minutes later. And we KNOW Goldstein is a member.

Best regards Mike.

[The Good Michael]

Why are any of these suspects any less "valid" or "fitting" for the Stride murder than the generic "Polish Jew" suspect?

Ben

Sorry. In the context of the club and conspiracy, these guys seem to be invalid.

Mike