The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Take Schwartz out of the equation, and yes Stride's murder is no longer problematic. However, can we dismiss Schwartz's account just because the pieces don't fit?

At least one person other than myself, should be willing to do so.

What is the reason for clinging to an account that prevents the pieces from fitting together? The only way I see that this could be justified, is by supposing that at least one big piece of the puzzle is missing. That would be fine, but that is not what we have. Instead we have the repeated claim that if you're not onboard with the standard narrative, then you must be the peddler of some evil plot.

[FISHY1118]

Over on the Goldstein thread, you said ...



So apparently it was all over in matter of moments, and those moments lasted from 12:45 to 12:49!

The 'moments' claim is there to explain why the Schwartz incident went unnoticed. The 'double attack' claim is there to explain why there was no physical evidence of a BS man style attack.

This is good make it up as you go stuff.

All this shows is your getting desperate , you cant see it can you? , but then again you never could .

Theres no need to make stuff up as you put it, when we have the evidence that backs it up. You, like most just choose to ignore it.

[caz]

While I suspect Dear Boss and Saucy Jacky were from the ripper, the use of "Ha ha" is a red herring, because it was such a common expression in Victorian songs and verse. It doesn't point to a particular suspect, or we may as well add WS Gilbert to the list.

As for BS man, I suspect he left Stride - at least temporarily - when he realised he had been seen pushing her down by Schwartz and Pipeman, who heard her call out in protest. Stride then darted into the yard as BS man walked away along Berner Street, with his back to her. Thinking she was now free of the man's unwelcome attentions, she dusted herself off and then took out her cachous, while facing the light coming from the club. She was just about to pop one in her mouth when her killer suddenly grabbed her from behind, overpowered her and cut her throat in one swift and silent movement. She had little chance to react, and never even saw her killer's face.

He could have been BS man, returning when he saw the coast was clear, determined to teach Stride a lesson. Alternatively, he could have been Pipeman, taking advantage of BS man's departure to strike while she was preoccupied. If he had turned back after seeing off Schwartz, he might have watched her entering the yard. The assault he witnessed may even have excited and provoked him, despite the risky location.

Whoever the killer was, he could hardly have hung around mutilating his victim after inflicting the fatal cut, and it's my belief his blood was up by then, so he ran off to look for a second victim.

Love,

Caz
X

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What happened to the notion of JtR being interrupted by Diemschitz?

This poll would suggest that this has historically been the most popular opinion.

[GBinOz]

While I suspect Dear Boss and Saucy Jacky were from the ripper, the use of "Ha ha" is a red herring, because it was such a common expression in Victorian songs and verse. It doesn't point to a particular suspect, or we may as well add WS Gilbert to the list.

As for BS man, I suspect he left Stride - at least temporarily - when he realised he had been seen pushing her down by Schwartz and Pipeman, who heard her call out in protest. Stride then darted into the yard as BS man walked away along Berner Street, with his back to her. Thinking she was now free of the man's unwelcome attentions, she dusted herself off and then took out her cachous, while facing the light coming from the club. She was just about to pop one in her mouth when her killer suddenly grabbed her from behind, overpowered her and cut her throat in one swift and silent movement. She had little chance to react, and never even saw her killer's face.

He could have been BS man, returning when he saw the coast was clear, determined to teach Stride a lesson. Alternatively, he could have been Pipeman, taking advantage of BS man's departure to strike while she was preoccupied. If he had turned back after seeing off Schwartz, he might have watched her entering the yard. The assault he witnessed may even have excited and provoked him, despite the risky location.

Whoever the killer was, he could hardly have hung around mutilating his victim after inflicting the fatal cut, and it's my belief his blood was up by then, so he ran off to look for a second victim.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

Thank you for the information on the use of "Ha Ha" in the Victorian era, a fact of which I was completely unaware. I am not convinced the Dear Boss and Saucy Jack letters were authored by JtR. I think that the "From Hell" letter is more likely in that regard.

I am more inclined to agree with your proposal for Pipeman being the culprit, taking the opportunity for a kill which witness testimony would point at someone else, rather than it being that someone else. That would also explain him making a move towards Schwartz to see him off, but not following him. I think Schwartz was too busy running away to know how far Pipeman followed. It would seem a little early for Diemshitz's return but since no-one knows the where-abouts of Parcelman at this time, he may have played a part in an interruption, or just someone leaving the club (the Wess story). Alternatively, if the killer wasn't JtR then mutilations may not have been part of the intention at all.

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

Hi Caz,

Thank you for the information on the use of "Ha Ha" in the Victorian era, a fact of which I was completely unaware. I am not convinced the Dear Boss and Saucy Jack letters were authored by JtR. I think that the "From Hell" letter is more likely in that regard.

I am more inclined to agree with your proposal for Pipeman being the culprit, taking the opportunity for a kill which witness testimony would point at someone else, rather than it being that someone else. That would also explain him making a move towards Schwartz to see him off, but not following him. I think Schwartz was too busy running away to know how far Pipeman followed. It would seem a little early for Diemshitz's return but since no-one knows the where-abouts of Parcelman at this time, he may have played a part in an interruption, or just someone leaving the club (the Wess story). Alternatively, if the killer wasn't JtR then mutilations may not have been part of the intention at all.

Cheers, George

Hi George /Caz . I think ill have to disagree . Surely B.S man who seen by Schwartz at 12.45am actually assaulting Stride, has to be put forward before all others as her murderer? , Theres just nothing at all that to suggest based on any witness testimony that Pipeman had anything to do with what took place except look on then move on and follow Schwartz a short distance down the road .

I just cant see for the life of me why people would have him as the murderer before B.S.


Also if pipeman was to double back with intent to kill , then its not 12.45 am anymore! . There now precious minutes gone by with a new set of of circumstances , 1, He has to now find Stride where ever she made be [more time to do that] , . 2 Kill her without her making a sound [for the second time in as many minutes , not be seen by any new witnesses that now may have entered the same spots as Schwartz and Pipeman.

Just way to much to ask and expect people to believe if you ask me . when we have a perfect suspect who was witnessed assaulting a women that was dead just minutes later . ....

[Aethelwulf]

Hi George /Caz . I think ill have to disagree . Surely B.S man who seen by Schwartz at 12.45am actually assaulting Stride, has to be put forward before all others as her murderer? , Theres just nothing at all that to suggest based on any witness testimony that Pipeman had anything to do with what took place except look on then move on and follow Schwartz a short distance down the road .

I just cant see for the life of me why people would have him as the murderer before B.S.


Also if pipeman was to double back with intent to kill , then its not 12.45 am anymore! . There now precious minutes gone by with a new set of of circumstances , 1, He has to now find Stride where ever she made be [more time to do that] , . 2 Kill her without her making a sound [for the second time in as many minutes , not be seen by any new witnesses that now may have entered the same spots as Schwartz and Pipeman.

Just way to much to ask and expect people to believe if you ask me . when we have a perfect suspect who was witnessed assaulting a women that was dead just minutes later . ....

also never understood the fascination with Pipeman over BS - waste of time. After 130 odd years there is little to work with so what is wrong with the most logical explanation. Given the time constraints the man who was seen assaulting stride must be the prime suspect. People on here just love tying themselves in knots with theories a lot more complicated than have any sort of mileage. Look at Trevor and his crackers apron BS!

[Sunny Delight]

also never understood the fascination with Pipeman over BS - waste of time. After 130 odd years there is little to work with so what is wrong with the most logical explanation. Given the time constraints the man who was seen assaulting stride must be the prime suspect. People on here just love tying themselves in knots with theories a lot more complicated than have any sort of mileage. Look at Trevor and his crackers apron BS!

Agreed. It cannot be totally ruled out that someone else possibly Pipeman approaches Stride soon after BS man's assault and then kills her. The most logical explanation however is that BS man was the killer and the Ripper. He is very incautious and most likely a disorganised impulsive type killer. This leads him to taking chances and in Berner Street Israel Schwartz just happens to come across the scene as the attack begins. Stride is most likely dead within those next few minutes. As for the Apron Trevor's theory is utterly bonkers and totally ridiculous. He dismisses the best clue of the whole investigation.

[caz]

What happened to the notion of JtR being interrupted by Diemschitz?

This poll would suggest that this has historically been the most popular opinion.

Still very much a possibility as far as I'm concerned.

You of all people must recognise the concept of juggling with more than two or three possible scenarios here!

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Caz,

Thank you for the information on the use of "Ha Ha" in the Victorian era, a fact of which I was completely unaware. I am not convinced the Dear Boss and Saucy Jack letters were authored by JtR. I think that the "From Hell" letter is more likely in that regard.

I am more inclined to agree with your proposal for Pipeman being the culprit, taking the opportunity for a kill which witness testimony would point at someone else, rather than it being that someone else. That would also explain him making a move towards Schwartz to see him off, but not following him. I think Schwartz was too busy running away to know how far Pipeman followed. It would seem a little early for Diemshitz's return but since no-one knows the where-abouts of Parcelman at this time, he may have played a part in an interruption, or just someone leaving the club (the Wess story). Alternatively, if the killer wasn't JtR then mutilations may not have been part of the intention at all.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

If Pipeman was Stride's murderer, I would be seriously stuck for a motive unless he was JtR, taking advantage of the situation after the 'assault' by BS man, as witnessed by Schwartz.

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

also never understood the fascination with Pipeman over BS - waste of time. After 130 odd years there is little to work with so what is wrong with the most logical explanation. Given the time constraints the man who was seen assaulting stride must be the prime suspect. People on here just love tying themselves in knots with theories a lot more complicated than have any sort of mileage. Look at Trevor and his crackers apron BS!

i couldnt agree more. bs man was her killer and the ripper

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

If Pipeman was Stride's murderer, I would be seriously stuck for a motive unless he was JtR, taking advantage of the situation after the 'assault' by BS man, as witnessed by Schwartz.

Love,

Caz
X

I agree Caz, but is that not a reasonable possibility?

Cheers, George

[Mark J D]

If Pipeman was Stride's murderer, I would be seriously stuck for a motive unless he was JtR, taking advantage of the situation after the 'assault' by BS man, as witnessed by Schwartz.

To me it's more likely that the killer was a person no-one had any reason to notice -- Lechmere walking north on his way home from his mother's house in Maryann Street, likely after a few Saturday night bevvies in one of his old locals. He doesn't see the angry, rejected punter's assault on Stride (who is not soliciting that night); an agitated Schwartz and Pipeman pass him going south; he then encounters a shaken and tearful Stride in the gateway of the Club -- a club he walked past hundreds of times when he lived in James Street; a Club for Jews who want to tear down all the structures of society, damn stinking, jabbering foreigners. Stride tells him of the assault and the different people passing -- and suddenly he realises he can piggy-back on that attack and its witnesses. He's already left a body near Robert Paul's workplace to try and implicate him; now he's going to leave one -- in fact, two, if he can manage it -- next to Jewish organisations. But, not being in his work clothes on Saturday night, he doesn't have his usual knife; so he either reaches for his little clasp knife or gets something from the deserted Club kitchen on the pretext of looking for a woman to help Stride tidy herself up. Either way, it's the wrong kind of knife, and he has alcohol in his system, so he doesn't do a neat job; but she's still dead and next to building full of radical Jews, and everyone will soon be looking for the man with broad shoulders seen throwing her to the ground...

M.

[John Wheat]

To me it's more likely that the killer was a person no-one had any reason to notice -- Lechmere walking north on his way home from his mother's house in Maryann Street, likely after a few Saturday night bevvies in one of his old locals. He doesn't see the angry, rejected punter's assault on Stride (who is not soliciting that night); an agitated Schwartz and Pipeman pass him going south; he then encounters a shaken and tearful Stride in the gateway of the Club -- a club he walked past hundreds of times when he lived in James Street; a Club for Jews who want to tear down all the structures of society, damn stinking, jabbering foreigners. Stride tells him of the assault and the different people passing -- and suddenly he realises he can piggy-back on that attack and its witnesses. He's already left a body near Robert Paul's workplace to try and implicate him; now he's going to leave one -- in fact, two, if he can manage it -- next to Jewish organisations. But, not being in his work clothes on Saturday night, he doesn't have his usual knife; so he either reaches for his little clasp knife or gets something from the deserted Club kitchen on the pretext of looking for a woman to help Stride tidy herself up. Either way, it's the wrong kind of knife, and he has alcohol in his system, so he doesn't do a neat job; but she's still dead and next to building full of radical Jews, and everyone will soon be looking for the man with broad shoulders seen throwing her to the ground...

M.

There's no evidence Lechmere was the Ripper and the rest of your post is pure fantasy too.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

To me it's more likely that the killer was a person no-one had any reason to notice -- Lechmere walking north on his way home from his mother's house in Maryann Street, likely after a few Saturday night bevvies in one of his old locals.

Lechmere would have had to walk north-west to get to Berner Street from his mother's house - the wrong direction as he would have had to go north-eastwards in order to get home.

And if he was on his way home, why would he then travel a further mile westwards to the City of London?