The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[Tom_Wescott]

I agree with the seedmeister. To use some estimate of time of death and suggest that it proves she wasn't killed by the Ripper is pure hot air. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[ChrisGeorge]

- The International Club was categorized by officials as an Anarchists Club.

The same club later on became an anarchist club. They were more genuinely socialist at this period.

- Diemshutz and Eagle supposedly yell "another woman has been murdered" when seeking Police. Yet nothing in Liz Strides single injury would lead to an automatic conclusion this death belonged to the man that killed Annie Chapman, or Polly.

You are looking at the situation the wrong way though. A murder in the same area as the other murders, which it was, would automatically be credited in the public imagination to the same killer, right or wrongly, partly because thinking about the murders was driven by the press coverage which characterized or at least implied that all murders in Whitechapel, Spitalfields and adjoining neighborhoods to the same hand. It was rightly or wrongly a myth created by the press. We need to think in the mindset of the people in the East End and all England during the period.

Hi Malcolm,

I would disagree that moving Liz would be a smart option for them. Its possible based on my conjecture that the members themselves had nothing to do with the murder at at all....their only concern would be that the man was a club attendee and therefore that makes them responsible for "hosting" a killer, and that a woman is dead in their yard.

Do we have proof that the yard actually was owned by the club? There weren't the only people who used the yard since there were other businesses and private residences there (I'm viewing the printing office of Der Arbeiter Fraint as a business separate to the club). Was the yard actually owned by anybody or was it more of an "unadopted" passage or area?

Chris

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Chris,

This was a time of transition and growth for the club. They most definitely had their anarchist connections.
As for the yard, if you rent a house and a woman shows up dead in the yard, it would be a dead body in 'your yard'. Ownership is incidental.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

It makes even less sense to blindly accept the "ripper interruptus" version of events when there is evidence to support it being nothing more than a fairy tale.

What evidence can you bring to the table in support of Stride being killed by the Ripper?

Regards,

Simon

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Chris,

This was a time of transition and growth for the club. They most definitely had their anarchist connections.
As for the yard, if you rent a house and a woman shows up dead in the yard, it would be a dead body in 'your yard'. Ownership is incidental.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yes but Michael and others it have been saying the yard was club property which implies they owned it. My question is, did they.

Chris

[Chris]

By the phrasing it seems to me he is strongly endorsing 20 minutes or less as the timing, but allowing for as much as 30 minutes as his safety position.

[my emphasis added]

Yes, that's exactly what I was pointing out.

According to most reports, he thought 20 minutes or less was the likeliest timing. So he didn't estimate that "Liz is cut by 12:56" as you claimed in the post I was replying to.

And of course c.d. is right that any contemporary estimate of the time of death would be subject to a large uncertainty.

[Jeff Leahy]

I dont know if I'm missing something here, but wouldn't a time frame of 12.46, approx the same time Schwartz see's BS attack Stride suggest that, BS was the ripper?

and Stride simply takes some time to die behind the gates before her body is discovered.

Pirate

[c.d.]

I think the bottom line is that no matter how hard you try to tweak the time frame, there is ample time for Jack to arrive on the scene and do his thing. He doesn't have to bypass some complex security code, evade guard dogs or climb a high wall topped with barbed wire. Since the time is only an estimate it would seem that it can also be tweaked to give Jack only a short time before he is interrupted by Diemschutz.

c.d.

[Simon Wood]

Hi CD,

To solve the conundrum all you have to do is reconcile three things—

1. Stride was dead at 1.00 am.

2. Stride bled to death comparatively slowly.

3. The Ripper was interrupted at 1.00 am.

Regards,

Simon

[c.d.]

Sorry, Simon you lost me on that one. I don't know what your point is.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Chris,

My understanding is that the clubmen owned the house and all property in the yard, so therefore the yard.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Simon, I've made that argument many a time, have you not been keeping up?

[Cap'n Jack]

Some years ago I dug out all the weather reports for the nights of the murders and bunged them up here, but they probably got lost in the collapse of the site.
I don't keep records of anything, but I seem to remember that there were short sharp showers throughout the night of 30th September 1888.
One reason that Stride may have appeared to have dry clothing over the upper half of her body was that she was wearing a wide brimmed hat that offered protection. The fact that she had stuffed newspaper into that hat would certainly indicate she had in fact stood in the rain for some considerable time.
Quite simple when you think about it. A man is spotted with a newspaper wrap in his hand; Packer probably sold his fruit wrapped in newspaper to save money on paper bags - a common market practice in the LVP - Stride removes grapes from newspaper wrap, stuffs newspaper into hat and they stroll off eating the grapes... in the rain.
Everything fine and dandy, that is until the jilted ex boyfriend turns up.
Not even murder, but manslaughter.

[Tom_Wescott]

Her hat would not have protected her clothes (much less the newspaper) from getting wet, and you know that AP.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

To solve the conundrum all you have to do is reconcile three things—

1. Stride was dead at 1.00 am.

2. Stride bled to death comparatively slowly.

3. The Ripper was interrupted at 1.00 am.

Interesting observation, Simon - I'd never noticed that particular conundrum before. Although it's strictly off-topic in terms of this thread, I'm nonetheless grateful to you for pointing it out.

[c.d.]

Interesting observation, Simon - I'd never noticed that particular conundrum before. Although it's strictly off-topic in terms of this thread, I'm nonetheless grateful to you for pointing it out.

I hate to display my ignorance so openly but I am still not sure of the point being made. Is it that Jack would have had a great deal of time to perform his mutilations given this time frame?

c.d.