If Liz Had Been Mutilated

[Malcolm X]

Nothing stopping him from doing that after she'd refused to come with him into the street, and the other witnesses had scarpered, Mal.

no, not with breath fresheners in her hand too.... because if she saw him returning, she'd make sure she had nothing in her hands, in anticipation of another fight, she'd either let go of them, or put them in her clothing, if she saw him returning at range!

plus pulling her into the street is very odd behaviour for a killer anyway, more like pull her into cover so nobody can see, dont forget that he didn't know anyone was watching.

why would he return to foolishly kill her, if Schwartz had such a good look at him, he walked right past......... dont forget Pipeman accomplice or not, he was there too.

these points i raise are very important..

I would challenge the idea that almost all the important witnesses were clubmen. The most important witnesses (in no particular order) were James Brown, Fanny Mortimer, Diemschutz, Morris Eagle, and Schwartz. Of those 5 only two are known clubmen.

As for Mike's contention that there's no evidence the Ripper had anything to do with Stride's murder, I suppose that depends on which evidence you choose to evaluate and how.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

More fairly put.....James Brown is only worthwhile if Schwartz was mistaken on time, or lied, they have the same times in their stories, with 2 decidedly different encounters...Fanny Mortimer can only have seen the area sporadically between 12:45 and 1am based on her words, she is most valuable for what she didnt see, and Goldstein...Diemshutz finds the woman, and hes the Club Steward,.. Eagle was the guest speaker and likely a member and the last one to state the condition of the yard as empty, and Schwartz is a Jew outside a Socialist Jewish club, with a ridiculous explanation for being there at 12:45am. Goldsteins pass is almost to the minute the end of the time of Blackwells cut estimate...the time it was completed, and most of the club is around the gates and the body when the cops arrive.

Diemshutz, Mrs D, Kozebrodski, Eagle, Lave, are all connected with the club....so is Goldstein, and Schwartz may well have been as well. And Diemshutz and Eagle call out "another" victim has been murdered, suggesting that the single wound was a signature of sorts for the Ripper killer at large. Which was, and is, nonsense. And lest we not forget the 28 or so men that were still there.

As for Ripper evidence, if a single cut is indicative of a Jack the Ripper murder, one that may have been made while the victim fell...then you got me. Hes obviously guilty.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

if Broadshoulders was the killer, wouldn't he have been trying to pull Stride INTO Dutfields........

Nothing stopping him from doing that after she'd refused to come with him into the street, and the other witnesses had scarpered, Mal.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Mrs Long...oh sorry, Darrell....,

The police interviewed every man on site, checked boots and hands and cuffs for blood, spoke with the cottagers, and searched the premises. I believe they expected to find a connection to her murder on someone there...the club was not highly regarded by the Police.

If you take into account Fanny, who says she was at her door off and on from around 12:45 until 1am and only saw Goldstein walk past at 12:55....you have support for Schwartz, cause he and Pipeman are not seen by Fanny at that time, and you have to assume that the victim is out of sight because she is in the yard. Shes found dead there minutes later, it makes sense that she was in the yard after Schwartz left.

Now, is she in there with BSM, or Jack? Cause it doesnt look like they were one and the same... by his drunken entry and witnessed skirmish with someone he will soon kill. And in doesnt appear as if Liz was certainly killed by Jack...something we have no issue assuming about Polly. Annie and Kate....so, my money is on BSM in the yard with Liz.

Or in Clue Format......its the brute Broadshouldered Man, in the yard, with his knife.

Best regards Mrs D

Broadshoulders didn't notice Schwartz till he had passed by, but before that he had already pulled Stride OUT of the gateway and onto the ground.........not into the gateway and he wasn't carrying a knife either.

therefore he was doing exacty the opposite to what the killer did...and Broadshoulders didn't even know Schwartz was there..

if Broadshoulders was the killer, wouldn't he have been trying to pull Stride INTO Dutfields........

why was he pulling her away from the yard.......was this a jealous ex-lover !

she would've been very pised off with Broadshoulders, so why was she found with breath fresheners in her hand.....not for him that's for sure, she had them in her hand for someone else who came along later on!

[Sam Flynn]

That the picture of the remarks made by witnesses was a dark empty yard, which contradicts neighbors accounts of after meeting noise on Saturday nights from that yard, often past 1am

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they, Mike? Icelandic proverb: "Everyone likes the smell of their own farts". Never forget

But surely the police weren't so inept that they wouldn't have considered that fact? Abbeline seemed impressed with Schwartz's account. The thing I find strange is that no-one else saw Schwartz, BS man or Pipe man.

Hi Mrs Long...oh sorry, Darrell....,

The police interviewed every man on site, checked boots and hands and cuffs for blood, spoke with the cottagers, and searched the premises. I believe they expected to find a connection to her murder on someone there...the club was not highly regarded by the Police.

If you take into account Fanny, who says she was at her door off and on from around 12:45 until 1am and only saw Goldstein walk past at 12:55....you have support for Schwartz, cause he and Pipeman are not seen by Fanny at that time, and you have to assume that the victim is out of sight because she is in the yard. Shes found dead there minutes later, it makes sense that she was in the yard after Schwartz left.

Now, is she in there with BSM, or Jack? Cause it doesnt look like they were one and the same... by his drunken entry and witnessed skirmish with someone he will soon kill. And in doesnt appear as if Liz was certainly killed by Jack...something we have no issue assuming about Polly. Annie and Kate....so, my money is on BSM in the yard with Liz.

Or in Clue Format......its the brute Broadshouldered Man, in the yard, with his knife.

Best regards Mrs D

[Tom_Wescott]

I would challenge the idea that almost all the important witnesses were clubmen. The most important witnesses (in no particular order) were James Brown, Fanny Mortimer, Diemschutz, Morris Eagle, and Schwartz. Of those 5 only two are known clubmen.

As for Mike's contention that there's no evidence the Ripper had anything to do with Stride's murder, I suppose that depends on which evidence you choose to evaluate and how.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

A hypothetical question...if Liz had been mutilated, would the debate still rage as to whether she should be included in the Canonical Five? Would the manner in which her throat was cut still be significant? What about the possibility that a different knife had been used? Would that still be a factor? If we argue that Jack killed her and came on the scene after the BS man had left, would the time frame still be as relevant if she had been mutilated or would the mutilation be the trump card for including Liz in the C5?

c.d.

Hi cd,

The time for mutilation has never been the issue here, when the witnesses Israel and Pipeman leave, there is still 14 minutes before Diemshutz arrives. Almost double the time Kates killer may have had with her.

But if youre asking if Liz Stride was found with her skirts pushed up and her abdomen mutilated, would she be so contentious a Canonical?

In my opinion... not at all. We all know a man was around at that time who killed women and mutilated their abdomens...sometimes taking internal organs...had she been found in a condition similar to any of them, not an issue placing her on Jacks list.

And the reverse is just as simple an equation....can we confidently assign a victim that has no visible signs that she met with Jack the Ripper, and no sign she was even touched after her throat was slit to the list of a killer who almost decapitates his victims before mutilating their abdomens, often taking contents with him.... because we know he kills somewhere else, a 10 minute walk away, in less than an hour? Not at all.

Cheers cd

[Mrs Darrell]

But surely the police weren't so inept that they wouldn't have considered that fact? Abbeline seemed impressed with Schwartz's account. The thing I find strange is that no-one else saw Schwartz, BS man or Pipe man.

That might have something to do with the fact that she was killed on club premises, Mike, and nothing more sinister than that.

That they needed to be involved is Im sure your point Sam, since she is killed on their property.

That the picture of the remarks made by witnesses was a dark empty yard, which contradicts neighbors accounts of after meeting noise on Saturday nights from that yard, often past 1am,... and that the victim was first assaulted OFF their premises just before she is killed ON their premises, were not required elements.

They were extremely fortuitous stories in retrospect....for both the Club and its members.

Cheers Sam

[Sam Flynn]

Almost all important witnesses from PC Smith on were Club members.

That might have something to do with the fact that she was killed on club premises, Mike, and nothing more sinister than that.

Thanks Barry.....and we cant forget that the Club members that expressed shock, and revulsion at the sight of blood, and fear,...rushed police with sticks and bats in that same yard a few months later....Diemshutz and Kozebrodski were arrested I believe.

These were young men involved in a doctrine that sought to eradicate the Monarchy and class systems and put Socialism in its place. They were called Anarchists by the Police before the Double Event.

Cheers again Barry.

[halomanuk]

Thanks for explaining that Mike,a very interesting theory and certainly plausible knowing how things were at the time.
If that was the case they couldn't have asked for better timing for the Ripper to strike and mutilate Eddowes to take peoples attention away from Liz more.

The more i think about it the more Liz Stride just doesn't particularly fit in as a Ripper victim in my mind,at the moment at least.

Hi Barry,

Almost all important witnesses from PC Smith on were Club members. That may include the most relevant of them all, Israel Schwartz.

His story for being where he was is extremely weak, and he is a Socialist Jew, outside a Socialist Jews Mens Club after a regular Saturday night meeting that often concluded with men gathering in Dutfields Yard to smoke and chat past 1am. By neighbors accounts, "low men".

Interesting that on this night, no-one is in the yard, Schwartz just happens to be outside the club at 12:45am, and the witness that last saw Liz apparently saw her being manhandled, OFF their property.

It has the makings of a situation that could spell dire consequences for the Club, its members, and the radical press of Arbeter Fraint.

But funnily enough, their stories erase that possibility,....with a claim no-one was in the yard, and the Berner St door was locked at the time.

If the killer was a Club thug, he could have been let into the club after killing Liz via the side door, and let out the Berner door when people were massing by the gates.

Its not like they may have covered up a Ripper slaying....there is no physical evidence that suggests her killer was Jack....so no huge moral dilemma.

Cheers Barry, all the best.


editted to add.......Leon Goldstein walked past the gates when by Blackwells estimate on the time of the cut, Liz was almost certainly on the spot she dies on...perhaps already cut.

[halomanuk]

Thats a theory i have never heard or considered before Mike..