If Liz Had Been Mutilated

[Malcolm X]

Hi again,

Thanks for addressing that earlier issue fully Sam, ......I didnt doubt you.

I also agree with you on the recent exchanges....cd if you are looking to include Liz based on the proficiency of the throat cut as relates to ones that very nearly severed the head from the body,... I would think thats actually another factor to use to rule him out rather than include him.

no not at all, this far greater cut is post mortem, because to do this to a victim that's still alive; means he'll get covered in blood.....look at the blood sprays/ patterns from other victims, either on a fence or on a wall etc, he slit deeply into the side of the neck first......but Stride wasn't cut to that side of the neck ( facing well away from him) deeply enough, but could still be the ripper

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

The point is (if it was Jack) that we simply don't know how much time Jack would have had in which to mutilate her. We can only speculate. Again, the interruption doesn't have to come from Diemschutz. There could be any number of reasons including just good old paranoia on the part of Jack. And Liz was not the last woman on earth.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

Two previous victims doesn't really establish much of a pattern especially if the earlier victims had been drinking and been caught off guard. Liz had the benefit of reading about those murders and may have been much more on her guard and therefore harder to kill.

What exactly constitutes a "proper job?" His aim was to kill her which he did. It was dark. Jack rightly concluded that he had accomplished his intended purpose which was to kill her. I can't see him checking the wound to make sure he was consistent.

c.d.

[Malcolm X]

I'm sorry, Sam but I just can't buy the whole different cut argument. Liz was a prostitute and she had her throat cut as opposed to being shot or beaten with a baseball bat. There are just too many varibles in play. Did Jack have the exact same grip on the knife as before? Was his victim at exactly the same angle as before? Did she fight back more than the others? Did her scarf affect how he made his cut? Could he have slipped or been off balance as he made his move? In any event, he accomplished his purpose.

c.d.

exactly....the Carotid artery was not severed and Stride would have bled to death slowly, in comparison to other victims...this doesn't mean she wasn't a ripper victim though, the cut was long but not that deep, but it did sever her wind pipe, it seems like he applied the most pressure to the knife; to the front of her neck.

why he didn't do a second cut, is maybe because he heard a cart comming along.

[DVV]

Perhaps Jack had already realized, as he slashed her throat, that he had better leave the spot quickly (because of Schwartz? Diemshutz?). Hence this less severe cut.

Hi again,

Thanks for addressing that earlier issue fully Sam, ......I didnt doubt you.

I also agree with you on the recent exchanges....cd if you are looking to include Liz based on the proficiency of the throat cut as relates to ones that very nearly severed the head from the body,... I would think thats actually another factor to use to rule him out rather than include him.

In this murder there was time for a killer to mutilate her, based on evidence both witness and medical...there was an alledged empty yard to do it in, based on statements, and there is an Unfortunate stray in the form of Liz Stride right where he would want her at 12:45pm.....oh yeah, and also a drunk man who walked down the street swaying, and who it appears was rough with her in front of 2 witnesses as soon as he encountered her.

Very recently Ive begun to think that James Browns encounter at around 12:45 might have been the one that really matters here....and that the contemporary police thought that as well. And Brown is not a club member, for sure. Is Schwartz's account as much as mentioned in the Inquest? And we have the luxury of Brown being able to speak about his sighting and the fact he is still in the area when he hears the screams of the club members seeking police.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Other prostitutes have had their throats cut, CD - indeed, other prostitutes had their throats cut during the Whitechapel Murder series. Not all of them may be attributed to Jack.

As to angles, grips, etc... bear in mind that Jack had already dispatched at least two previous victims with ruthless efficiency, and with very deep and extensive throat wounds. I find it hard to believe that he'd have botched up this one, to the extent where he didn't even fully penetrate the vessels on the left side of Stride's neck. Having done that, why didn't he continue to do a proper job? It was only going to take a further couple of seconds to inflict another cut and - as we saw in previous murders - he wasn't averse to using a "double-cut" approach.

[c.d.]

I'm sorry, Sam but I just can't buy the whole different cut argument. Liz was a prostitute and she had her throat cut as opposed to being shot or beaten with a baseball bat. There are just too many varibles in play. Did Jack have the exact same grip on the knife as before? Was his victim at exactly the same angle as before? Did she fight back more than the others? Did her scarf affect how he made his cut? Could he have slipped or been off balance as he made his move? In any event, he accomplished his purpose.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

That comparatively superficial cut as you call it, Sam was enought to kill her was it not?

Oh, it was, CD. Dr Blackwell confirmed that she slowly bled to death - in stark contrast to the other Ripper victims.

[c.d.]

That comparatively superficial cut as you call it, Sam was enought to kill her was it not?

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

I was referring specifically to Liz. The point that I was trying to make was that Jack would have preferred to be able to mutilate her but didn't fancy being caught. Some thrill was better than none at all.

That's a double speculation worthy of the Double Event, CD! Firstly, that a comparatively superficial cut would have constituted much of a "thrill" for Jack; Secondly, that Jack was her killer at all

[DVV]

In which case we might as well ascribe any East End murder of that period to him, CD. Ultimately, we must stick with the facts before us - and, on what we "know" about Jack, the idea of his having killed Stride must remain speculative.

I see your point, Sam, but the fact that the mutilations are the distinctive mark of the WM doesn't exclude the "thrill to kill" dimension.

Amitiés,
David

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

You are right but I was referring specifically to Liz. The point that I was trying to make was that Jack would have preferred to be able to mutilate her but didn't fancy being caught. Some thrill was better than none at all.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

It seem we are so focused on the mutilations that we forget that Jack might have gotten off big time just with the thrill of the kill.

In which case we might as well ascribe any East End murder of that period to him, CD. Ultimately, we must stick with the facts before us - and, on what we "know" about Jack, the idea of his having killed Stride must remain speculative.

[DVV]

Speaking of pit stops....I wonder if Jack might have gotten Liz into the yard at which point she decided that she would like to use the facilities before getting down to business. That would knock off a few minutes of time and also give Jack a chance to have second thoughts about what he had gotten himself into. He might have decided the best course of action would be to kill her and then get out of there asap.

It seem we are so focused on the mutilations that we forget that Jack might have gotten off big time just with the thrill of the kill.

c.d.

Hi cd,
that's a possible scenario, and from a general point of view, I find your last sentence so right.

Amitiés,
David