If Liz Had Been Mutilated

[Mrs Darrell]

On the question of the killer being disturbed, Annie Chapmans killer wasn't too bothered about murdering her in a house with all those people in residence, or with Cadosch coming out of the house next door. Maybe The killer of Liz Stride had literally only time to inflict one wound as the pony was coming into the yard, before retreating further into it

So many facts about this murser don't make sense. If Mrs Mortimer was loitering around her doorstep for most of that time surely she would have at least heard the Schwartz incidence, even if she didn't see it?

Sam,

When the reporter used that phrase it was likely to color his idea of Schwartz's fear...as in he pissed his pants he was so scared. He fled incontinently to me seems self explanatory....its a dramatic way to say he was scared.

The oldest person that I know of in the Club witnesses and with Schwartz is approx 30,....and the club was known to attract anarchists...who would be right in that age range, young men.

Before we start assuming that they all were "so scared", as they all said they were, maybe some realization of the age of people who were involved should quash that notion a bit.

Young men who are deemed Anarchists by the police. Some who attack police with clubs in that same yard in a few months.

Ok...its worked again today, answering posts that are addressed to me from many people has taken its toll on my fingers....lol...I think Ill flee continently for the moment.

Best regards Sam, all.

[DVV]

Hi Malcolm,
I definitely share your "big problem". And trust me, the mystery of Jack's identity is far less mysterious than Stride's murder.

Amitiés,
David

[Malcolm X]

circumstances."Incontinence", in this sense, means "lack of restraint", Mike - as in "incontinent with rage/fear" - it doesn't mean he Cadoched himself!

yea' and just because i piss myself laughing, doesn't mean i have

i love this forum

[Malcolm X]

Hows this...BSM is in the yard with some other men, maybe a Pipesmoking Man, and Liz is just inside the gates. Eagle sees her, tells her hell be right out, and when he goes inside Schwartz is leaving via the yard and sees BSM try to take Liz ..out of the yard, and into the street. She pulls back, falls, BSM scowls at Schwartz and he and Pipeman leave, as BSM helps her up.

Insults, pushes, ....shoulder bruises, she turns to leave the yard and....

Best regards

"How bout you fix me up before your little friend gets back Missy?" i like that

this Stride murder is a nightmare

[Sam Flynn]

Nor does a statement that a person who was afraid of blood explain why he "tumbled down the stairs pell-mell" to see the dead woman and the river of blood.

That's the statement of someone who rushed down the stairs to see a bloody corpse - a rather stoic act under the circumstances.

The incontinence line on Schwartz is almost assuredly literary license anyway....hes only what, 30?

"Incontinence", in this sense, means "lack of restraint", Mike - as in "incontinent with rage/fear" - it doesn't mean he Cadoched himself! It means that he legged it out of the way as fast as he could.

Was this woman waiting for Eagle?

She might have been waiting for an Eagle, but ended up with a Bogey by the sound of things

[Malcolm X]

You missed the context completely, if Liz wasnt seen there when Fanny is by her door, she was almost certainly already in the yard.

Cheers

NO, i was answering directly about BS............but where was Stride as you say?

well she was probably waiting further inside the yard, waiting for someone to come out.... but BS might have left for good....or returned to kill her, or the Ripper jumped in because he was watching all of this from range, which is what he was good at.

i have a big problem with BS killing Stride realising he was seen by Schwartz

i definitely agree that she was waiting there for someone, i always have....but did Broadshoulders know that too and try to drag her away from Dutfields in a jealous rage....did he return to kill her or did he clear off due to being seen ?

Hows this...BSM is in the yard with some other men, maybe a Pipesmoking Man, and Liz is just inside the gates. Eagle sees her, tells her hell be right out, and when he goes inside Schwartz is leaving via the yard and sees BSM try to take Liz ..out of the yard, and into the street. She pulls back, falls, BSM scowls at Schwartz and he and Pipeman leave, as BSM helps her up.

"How bout you fix me up before your little friend gets back Missy?" Insults, pushes, ....shoulder bruises, she turns to leave the yard and....

Best regards

[Malcolm X]

Nor does a statement that a person who was afraid of blood explain why he "tumbled down the stairs pell-mell" to see the woman and the river of blood. The incontinence line is almost assuredly literary license anyway.

Was this woman waiting for Eagle?

Cheers Sam

i definitely agree that she was waiting there for someone, i always have....but did Broadshoulders know that too and try to drag her away from Dutfields in a jealous rage....did he return to kill her or did he clear off due to being seen ?

not the obvious at all........but instead, quite a foolish thing to do, Schwartz walked right past him

You missed the context completely, if Liz wasnt seen there when Fanny is by her door, she was almost certainly already in the yard.

Cheers

.... That "incontinent fleeing" from a man armed with a pipe doesn't sound like the behaviour of a working-class socialist agitator somehow.

Nor does a statement that a person who was afraid of blood explain why he "tumbled down the stairs pell-mell" to see the dead woman and the river of blood. The incontinence line on Schwartz is almost assuredly literary license anyway....hes only what, 30?

Was this woman waiting for Eagle?

Cheers Sam

[DVV]

That "incontinent fleeing" from a man armed with a pipe doesn't sound like the behaviour of a working-class socialist agitator somehow.

Ouah!
Sam at his top level.
EX-CE-LLENT!

Thanks Sam, I had a bad day, and almost forgot it!

[Malcolm X]

Nice to see someone else point out the obvious in this case.....thanks for that Sam.

.

not the obvious at all........but instead, quite a foolish thing to do, Schwartz walked right past him

Nothing stopping him from doing that after she'd refused to come with him into the street, and the other witnesses had scarpered, Mal.

Nice to see someone else point out the obvious in this case.....thanks for that Sam.

If Fanny didnt see Liz or Broadshoulders, and Schwartz's story is credible, with the altercation happening outside the gates, or even in the yard,...then Liz is likely in there. If BSM isnt with her, he may have left between Fannys visits to her door.

Which is fine....technically, he could have slit her throat at 12:46 inside the yard and left....that meets the medical estimates requirements.

My hunch is that after killing Liz, he went into the club via the yard entrance, and was let out the Berner Street door as the crowd gathered at the gates, and headed in the opposite direction. They locked it behind him....which makes the claim of the locked door at 12:40 by Eagle powerful...if its locked, no-one left via that door unless let out or having it locked behind him. With no-one leaving via the front door, and no-one in the yard, then how could they pin this on a clubman? As an aside, I dont think Eagle found the front door locked at 12:40, I think he went in via the yard to see if someone was there...maybe waiting for him. Maybe someone was, and hearing hed be back out soon, stepped outside the gates to wait there. Or, waited right there and was accosted while doing so.

Best regards Gareth, as always.

[Sam Flynn]

Diemshutz, Mrs D, Kozebrodski, Eagle, Lave, are all connected with the club....so is Goldstein

Indeed, Mike - they were in and out of it (or simply "in", in Mrs D's case). Given that they were club members and the body was found on club premises - irrespective of how it got there - it's hardly surprising that they were key witnesses to what happened after the body was discovered. By the same reasoning, we should all be deeply suspicious of John Davis, PC Watkins and Harry Bowyer.

and Schwartz may well have been as well.

Not sure he was - he sounds a bit of a jessie to me, Mike. That "incontinent fleeing" from a man armed with a pipe doesn't sound like the behaviour of a working-class socialist agitator somehow.