September 30,1888- The night of Clues?

[Abby Normal]

Hi everyone, long, long time reader, first time poster, so please bear with me. Love the website and have learned so much over the years.

Something you've mentioned, Abby, which has always been a puzzle, is whether Stride was out soliciting, or on a date. The circs - being dolled on and hanging around with a man, IMO do lean toward the latter, which leaves me the question. If the 'date' she's seen with was the man who murdered her (and I know there could me more than one man she's in the company of that night) is it reasonable to assume he'd be someone mature and closer to her age and not a 23 year old?

Apologies if this has been covered before.

hi john
welcome to tje nut house!

thats a great question. and yes that seems reasonable. but iwouldnt say date like it was pre planned. i think more then likely she went out for a good time, newly single, and keeping an eye out for a new man. and i think she met one who she maybe hoped was going to be, unfortunately for her it was the ripper.

[Abby Normal]

No, but I was noting that her location is the odd one out in terms of being on the other side of the main road/high street alongside the other poster noting that Berner Street was not necessarily where you'd go to find a prostitute. It's at least worth pointing out if we're going to debate the DE.

i think it might just be random, or that maybe he met her somewhere else, maybe even north of high street, and they seemed to have been wandering around together a bit. i dont think you can read much into her murder location being south of high street, although its a valid observation for discussion.

[JohnSAJR]

hi john
welcome to tje nut house!

thats a great question. and yes that seems reasonable. but iwouldnt say date like it was pre planned. i think more then likely she went out for a good time, newly single, and keeping an eye out for a new man. and i think she met one who she maybe hoped was going to be, unfortunately for her it was the ripper.

Thanks for the welcome and reply, Abby.

If she's out looking for a new suitor, it's more likely she'd seek someone closer to her age, rather than a man much younger, but I don't discount she's simply out for the night and met various men. IMO, the Brown and Schwartz statements are interesting. Brown sees and hears "No, not tonight. Some other night." Guy walks off angered and then u-turns back toward Stride as Schwartz comes along. What happens after that though? Anyway, cheers for the reply.

[scottnapa]

i think it might just be random, or that maybe he met her somewhere else, maybe even north of high street, and they seemed to have been wandering around together a bit. i don't think you can read much into her murder location being south of high street, although its a valid observation for discussion.

I think that Stride and Nichols were both picked up on Whitechapel and the ripper sought out a site that appealed to him. He went north with Nichols and went south with Stride. If you look at the crime on a map and thinking north south, Stride is the victim that stands out as being in a different quadrant but if you look at the crime on a map in the east west, the Nichols is the one that's questionable. I never considered Stride was picked up on Berner Street after all she was seen at the pub was a Bricklayer Arms and then continued south. i have found it to be useful to compare locations to ethnic boundaries. All of the victims lived in common houses in the same Jewish neighborhoods. My best guess is the Ripper live very close to the chalk message.

[The Rookie Detective]

Some excellent points being made on this thread.


I think the location of Stride's murder is interesting because it does fall south of Whitechapel Road.

However, I don't believe this was the exception because Coles and the Pinchin Street Torso were also south of the Whitechapel Road.

The idea that the Ripper was a Whitechapel murderer is rather misleading.

For example, on the night of the double event, Stride was slain in St George's in the East and Eddowes in the COL.


I think he should have been labelled the "East End murderer" because it covers a broader area; rather than restrict his crimes to Whitechapel.


The murder of Frances Coles is particularly interesting.

Her killer was almost certainly the man in the "cheesecutter hat" who punched Coles companion Ellen Callaran in the face after the latter had rejected the man's advances.


This man is reminiscent of the man who was alleged to have assaulted Stride.


There could therefore be a scenario whereby the man who murdered Stride, also murdered Coles...but him not having been the "Ripper."


We would then have a killer who operated south of Whitechapel Road.


The real ripper may have been responsible for...


Tabram
Nichols
Chapman
Eddowes
Kelly
McKenzie


It's interesting how the amount of victims that can be confidently attributed to the Ripper; still remains a relatively unknown aspect of the case.

[Tom_Wescott]

Whitechapel was too hot. Crawling with cops. It makes sense the Ripper moved to St. Georges and the COL for this reason. Probably for the same reason he went to Bethnal Green following Smith/Tabram when that area became a bit hot. If Stride was killed by a different hand than Eddowes (and that's a big if), then the two men were working together. This is the theory favored by the City of London police.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Robert St Devil]

There’s the counterpoint scottnapa that the ladies led Jack the Ripper to these sites.
In the case of Nichols, she could have been leading him to (correct me if I’m wrong) Brown’s Stableyard only to find that it had been recently painted and locked.
In the case of Stride, (maybe) she wasn’t as eager OR as enthusiastic as the other women to rush him off to a secluded spot; (maybe) she was just strolling about (slightly guarded) considering that 3 women had been murdered in the past 2 months and (allegedly) some guy had jokingly put a bug in her ear that she was with the Ripper himself.
The randomness of these locations could be attributed to the notion that Jack the Ripper followed where opportunity led him.

[Lewis C]

I don't place much significance on Stride's murder being the only one south of Whitechapel Road, because you could equally say that the Nichols murder was the only one that was that far to the east, and the Eddowes murder was the only one in the City of London, and either well south or well west of all the others. If you were to find the geographical center point of the C5 plus Tabram murder sites, I think you'd find that the Nichols, Stride, and Eddowes sites are about equally far from the center.

[scottnapa]

There’s the counterpoint scottnapa that the ladies led Jack the Ripper to these sites.
In the case of Nichols, she could have been leading him to (correct me if I’m wrong) Brown’s Stableyard only to find that it had been recently painted and locked.
In the case of Stride, (maybe) she wasn’t as eager OR as enthusiastic as the other women to rush him off to a secluded spot; (maybe) she was just strolling about (slightly guarded) considering that 3 women had been murdered in the past 2 months and (allegedly) some guy had jokingly put a bug in her ear that she was with the Ripper himself.
The randomness of these locations could be attributed to the notion that Jack the Ripper followed where opportunity led him.

I’m very excited that you brought this point up. Thank you.
It’s a question that I have as I look at each of the crime sites, does Jack the Ripper have a plan?
FBI profile says the Ripper more lucky than smart.The more I see, the less I agree.
I think the Ripper is more clever than he is lucky. Oh, he’s lucky, sure. For each crime scene, I as the question ‘does the Ripper has a plan’ ,

Serial Killers often succeed not because they're smarter but because they practice in their mind over and over.
They practice in the world and so I think it's very fair to imagine giving his success that the ripper is more clever than lucky.
Who chooses the site where the murder took place?
In the case of Nichols, there is little evidence to suggest one way or another. if Nichols or the killer chose Buck’s Row.
As I say, it’s a warehouse district and so that would be something that the Ripper would choose.
his makes sense as reason for someone to kill Polly at Brown’s Stable Yard. However that is insufficient proof of a plan .

It is wise to remember that Jack is the one with the knife,
The Ripper has the desire and will to murder publicly;
he could’ve chosen to kill Polly Nichols on Winthrop St or Court Street or piss alley.
No reason he had to let Polly take him someplace he did not want to go.
Whether the killer selected the Buck’s Row or not, the timing was up to him.
I believe the killer liked to take risks, more than most killers.
As I graph the location of the Polly Nichols murder, with the police routes,
there is little room for error for the killer. . One of the key elements to the case for me is how
the crimes scenes are similar to that most English of mystery tropes: the locked room puzzle.
How does he get there unseen? How does he leave unseen? Why does no one hear him?

As for Stride, the flower and the refusal “not tonight” tell the story.
He has chosen her. He doesn’t expect the resistance from a prostitute and so he throws her into the court.
Neither of them have chosen this spot, As a locked room puzzle it differs from Polly Nichols as some many witness see them before,
However, after, no one sees him leave. It’s shocking;, so many witnesses before the murder and absolutely none afterwards.
I believe he practices his crimes, walking the streets nightly, noticing, learning what routes to take, what alleys provide him with the highest percentage of safety, what paths the police take to patrol the same routes night after night. Few pay attention to him since he's local. He looks local. He doesn't look like a madman, but he's always calculating.

[The Rookie Detective]

I’m very excited that you brought this point up. Thank you.
It’s a question that I have as I look at each of the crime sites, does Jack the Ripper have a plan?
FBI profile says the Ripper more lucky than smart.The more I see, the less I agree.
I think the Ripper is more clever than he is lucky. Oh, he’s lucky, sure. For each crime scene, I as the question ‘does the Ripper has a plan’ ,

Serial Killers often succeed not because they're smarter but because they practice in their mind over and over.
They practice in the world and so I think it's very fair to imagine giving his success that the ripper is more clever than lucky.
Who chooses the site where the murder took place?
In the case of Nichols, there is little evidence to suggest one way or another. if Nichols or the killer chose Buck’s Row.
As I say, it’s a warehouse district and so that would be something that the Ripper would choose.
his makes sense as reason for someone to kill Polly at Brown’s Stable Yard. However that is insufficient proof of a plan .

It is wise to remember that Jack is the one with the knife,
The Ripper has the desire and will to murder publicly;
he could’ve chosen to kill Polly Nichols on Winthrop St or Court Street or piss alley.
No reason he had to let Polly take him someplace he did not want to go.
Whether the killer selected the Buck’s Row or not, the timing was up to him.
I believe the killer liked to take risks, more than most killers.
As I graph the location of the Polly Nichols murder, with the police routes,
there is little room for error for the killer. . One of the key elements to the case for me is how
the crimes scenes are similar to that most English of mystery tropes: the locked room puzzle.
How does he get there unseen? How does he leave unseen? Why does no one hear him?

As for Stride, the flower and the refusal “not tonight” tell the story.
He has chosen her. He doesn’t expect the resistance from a prostitute and so he throws her into the court.
Neither of them have chosen this spot, As a locked room puzzle it differs from Polly Nichols as some many witness see them before,
However, after, no one sees him leave. It’s shocking;, so many witnesses before the murder and absolutely none afterwards.
I believe he practices his crimes, walking the streets nightly, noticing, learning what routes to take, what alleys provide him with the highest percentage of safety, what paths the police take to patrol the same routes night after night. Few pay attention to him since he's local. He looks local. He doesn't look like a madman, but he's always calculating.

Excellent post.

I particularly agree with the last paragraph; there's no way he didn't know his potential escape routes. He must have been aware of the police routine beats; but note that he appears to dispatch some of his victims very close to the physical border of jurisdiction.

This is significant because he shows he has the presence of mind to incorporate multiple police routes and fit them in to his kill time.

The sites are also varied...

A stairwell in a communal housing block
A narrow street
A communal back garden
A passageway to an enclosed yard
An open public square
A rented internal bedroom


He never sticks to the same type of kill site, and there's a reason for this variation being implemented into his planning.

It could be said that if he stuck to murdering his victims all in the same type of location, then he most likely would have been caught.

It's the Ripper version of playing Whac-A-Mole in the dark, and without a mallet.


That said, with Mckenzie there's almost a sense of a reset, or going back to basics; ergo, he kills McKenzie in a similar manner to Nichols and reverts to a public street.

And with Coles, we have a railway arch; having already murdered Nichols beside a railway line and deposited the Pinchin Street torso under a railway arch.

The clue of being on the "right track" is perhaps a tantalising clue that the killer was a workman who worked in construction.

A civil servant of "Navvy."

Interestingly, Elizabeth Jackson; the only Torso victim to have been identified, was last seen by 2 different witnesses, talking a man described as having looked like a Navvy.

Navvy's built railway arches

When we consider that the Whitehall torso was deposited under a construction site, and the Pinchin Street torso under a relatively new railway arch directly next to the board of works stone yard, then we begin to see a pattern emerging.

The links are there

[jerryd]

Hi RD.

I like the construction worker/navvy theory. I've also enjoyed Bernard Browns ideas on construction workers and railway policemen. The following excerpt has always stuck with me.

An interesting link to the construction of tram-lines on Commercial Street was put forward by Bernard Brown in 2000: the North Metropolitan Tramways Act, 1887 had received the Royal Assent on 29th March 1888 and authorised the North Metropolitan Tramways Company "to lay down and maintain a new tramway in Commercial Street."

"Gangs of navvies descended on Whitechapel and Spitalfields and work commenced on digging up the entire length of Commercial Street and laying track. The work continued day and night until completion in November 1888. During the construction Emma Smith, Martha Tabram, Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were murdered. Coincidence? The diverted horse-drawn traffic from Commercial Street was horrendous and the `ladies of the night and their clients were hardly able to conduct their business. Could the disruption explain why there were no murders during October and why Mary Kelly was killed indoors? 15th November 1888, a week after Kelly s murder, the Commercial Street tramway finally opened with a line of brownpainted horse trams running between Bloomsbury and Poplar (fare 3d). Near the latter line on 20th December 1888 the body of Rose Mylett was found just off the High Street."^[7]

[Patrick Differ]

Why Whitechapel and why 1888 is one question that points to motive and hence to night of clues. The victims were all Street walkers, they were all living in the same general area around Flower & Dean Street and could have easily been followed. This appears to be a common reference point. It appears that these women would work areas on or off the 3 major thouroughfares. There would be no shortage of Pubs and they would likely know every dark corner to play their trade. Dutfields Yard , 29 Hanbury Street, George Yard, Mitre Square, Bucks Row , were all roughly one block off the thoroughfare and known to be used by the street walkers.
I don't think there is much debate that these women had little choice but to ply their trade the night they were killed
The motive may have been as simple as revenge against Street walkers for a personal reason. However murder is one thing, mutilation is another and JtR was anything but typical. He committed atrocities.
When you look at Whitechapel in 1887, the year before, you see the worst recession in decades. You also see the start of The Press blasting the illegal immigrants for putting additional economic pressure on " the English". This event included the Jewish Chronical which was taking more of an anglicized Jewish position against these same immigrants.
Additionally, the Trial of Israel Lipski and the Trafalgar Square Bloody Sunday event put even more focus on the poor and Jewish Radical agitators. The Police were completely demoralized at Bloody Sunday and the level of trust between them and citizen was at an all time low.
So did the stage get set in 1887? Was there a combination of events that somehow led to the rise of Jack the Ripper?
if you wanted to just kill prostitutes why not just cut their throats and be done with it? Why mutilate? Why escalate?
The Eddowes murder was the first illustration of escalation that had multiple organs removed and facial disfigurement. Basically removal of their humanity? Mary Kelly was definitely that !
The apron and graffiti and the timing of it and locations may hold the key to this killer. A story was being told in my opinion.
The women not having any human value or just being easy picking may have been held by the killer and perhaps that was all it was. I can't help but think it was more than that because of the mutilation.
What do these clues mean? No idea. But apparently the killer was able to hide in plain sight before he left the apron.