September 30,1888- The night of Clues?

[scottnapa]

I’m guessing if a man is going to have DEVIL in his name scottnapa he’s going to find himself playing the ADVOCATE from time to time.
I’m just not seeing the wide area that he is disrupting. I mean, it looks like a wide area because the points are pinned on a hyper zoomed map of Whitechapel; much like my nose looks huge whenever i take a selfie holding the camera 3” away from my face. However, zoom that scope out to encompass London as a whole & the context of how isolated of an area he was striking comes into focus.
I’m NOT trying to minimalize that L8ND8N/Whitechapel wasn’t a labyrinth of back alleys upon alleys upon thoroughfares nor that the region was a sardine can of people jammed one on top of another; still… a ‘kilometer or two squared’ measured the same back-then as it does today (and with most Ripper tours advertising a 2-hour walking time, how wide of an area can it truly be?)

****** ** *****

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Hello. I think you have used that Devil line previously. You are right I am zoomed in. Point taken.
Whitechapel is a small part of London,
if we zoom out, the wider area is the influence of the tabloid press.
London and the world heard about Jack the Ripper. The tabloid press was critical of the police and commissioners

[Patrick Differ]

Hi Robert- I'm not convinced that there isnt more to motive than just some nut job suddenly deciding to slit throats and mutilate bodies and then stop. Something would have caused the trigger, it could have been caused by disease or drugs or a combination of things, including upheaval and change in the environment and a reluctance to accept it. It goes back to Why Whitechapel and why 1888? I do not believe it was random.
I've spent some time like everyone else trying to understand that time period and the Immigrants coming out of the Russian Empire were easy scapegoats. Especially for a Police department that may have leaned anti semitic. The Press was just as bad. Even the anglicized Jews and Especially those born in Whitechapel spoke out harshly against their brethren. It did not help that unemployment was already high before the immigrants started infiltrating the community.
If JtR wrote the graffiti, and I personally believe he did, what was he getting at? And was that personal regarding himself?
it's plausible.
Revenge against prostitutes for giving him syphilis which affected his brain is not a stretch for that time period. His method may have been based on job experience as the mutilations were, for the most part, fairly repeatable. Someone very familiar with sharp knives and keeping them sharp.
if you were a Whitechapel resident your entire life and had a bad experience with an immigrant, you were sick of it affecting your livelihood, and blamed someone other than yourself for your situation, and also blamed authority for it, then I think you describe a very typical feeling against the immigrant wave by Englishman.
Prior to the double event there were near riots against Jews in Whitechapel as the Press covered on September 15, 1888. Only stopped by a strong showing by the Police.
Police.
JtR drew more attention to these immigrants and specifically in Whitechapel in 1888. That is a clear result and if he was worried about it you would think he would have stopped.
I do not believe, unlike law enforcement and the Press at the time, believe this killer was an immigrant. I do however believe their presence might have been part of the killers motive.
Would the near riots of mid September prompt a meassage on September 30th? It might explain it.

[c.d.]

I do however believe their presence might have been part of the killers motive.

Entirely possible, Patrick. But we also know that Victoria was Queen at the time. Could he have been angered that a mere woman had so much power and authority? Maybe he found out that she was having affairs on the side. Could that have set him off as it clearly violated his morals or religious convictions?

I think you can see where I am going with this. Since we don't know his actual motivation any reason is pretty much up for grabs.

And of course in the end, there is always the possibility that he was simply deeply disturbed.

c.d.

[Patrick Differ]

Hi C.d - understand and appreciate your point of view. Turning over rocks may yield a result. Of course it would be nice to turn up the apron :-)

[Robert St Devil]

I was curious Tom_Wescott you seemed like you were going somewhere with the two-men theory. I ask because [when the aspect of harvesting organs is removed from the case], there’s a high likelihood that we all would be connecting the timeline of Jack the Slasher from Marta Tabram straight through to Frances Cole. And also because there are peculiarities about (some of) the scenes of the crimes that would be more easily explained if there were two men, such as lack of injuries to the palms and fingers, the condition of the clothes.

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I chewed on your post throughout the day Patrick Differ it’s slightly convoluted (no disrespect intended) but I think I grasp what you wanted to convey. However it does beg a question. Now, Lee Harvey Oswald was a simpleton who harbored misguided political rage over the Bay of Pigs (or some other commie mumbo-jumbo) so he assassinated a political leader. Hadi Matar was a misguided fool who harbored a resentment for comments that the author Salman Rushdie made so he stabbed him with fatal intentions. My point being, usually people focus their attacks directly on that person or thing that they hate. So, from your post, the question that arises is: why would Jack the Ripper attack Anglo women (albeit prostitutes) if his hatred was directed at the Jews? Why employ some bizarre murderous scheme with the hopes that his mysterious murders against prostitutes are able to instigate the festering antisemitism of Whitechapel society?

[scottnapa]

Hello everyone
I am curious why the Goulston Street chalk message is seen as , is anti-semite.
The Jews will not be blamed, sounds like a warning or a bulletin to me. I believe this is the Ripper’s neighborhood.
Warren certainly a fool.
Also, I haven’t seen much on whether if Eddowes was not a prostitute, that would mean he chose her as a victim since she was not selling herself.
thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

[Patrick Differ]

Robert and @Scott..

Robert- to clarify, there was a dynamic in Whitechapel that clearly pitted Alien v Briton. The Briton in this case included the local Anglicized Jews who were just as negative towards immigrant Jews. This was reflected in the Jewish Chronical, Pall Mall Gazette and other press at the time. It raises the question as to whether JtR was possibly an Anglicized Jew who may have had a bad experience with an Immigrant Jew which would provide motive against immigrants. This would be in addition to the motive of revenge against prostitutes. If there are legal aspects to this dynamic such as incarceration there could be additional motive against authority.

This ties to Scott's question regarding the graffiti and Goulston Street. After the murder of Chapman, Whitechapel had become a hot potato. The non immigrant population was taking to the Streets against them and Warren was trying to keep a lid on it and when riots were about to break out, he had to surge his police force. This is noted in the Press at the time.
Warren was likely heavily weighing the removal of the graffiti message because of real events on the ground. The fact that it was found above Eddowes apron leaves me to believe it's not a coincidence. As such what did the message mean?
" The Jews are not the men who will be blamed for nothing".

To me it seems that the message is personal. Either as a group or as a personal experience ( be blamed for nothing). The murders were certainly more than something. They were earth shattering and World News. Did Goulston Street have a specific meaning??

We know the Where and What in this case but not the Who and Why. Night of clues means apron and graffiti. Meaning?

This scenario presented leans heavily to suspect Jacob Levy and his history and also the Jewish Butcher Theory. Levy lived between the Chapman and Eddowes murder locations as well as Mary Kelly. Thats 3 of 5. He was also convicted of theft by a Polish Immigrant, Hyman Sampson, who was previously a non competitor living on Goulston Street and displaced by Wentworth Dwellings only to end up living next door to him on Middlesex Street.

Levy spent 3 weeks in Chelmsford prison in April 1886 and attempted suicide by strangulation 3 weeks later only to end up in Essex Asylum. So here is a convicted criminal lunatic suffering from syphilis released into the Asylum general population. He serves his 12 month conviction and is released
to his wife ( who had to conduct his butcher business and face Hyman Sampson every day) . He is a broken man. Stigmatized as Jacob the Lunatic. He virtually destroys a Legacy butcher business handed to him by Francis Levy, his aunt and witness Joseph Hyam Levys mother! He gets out only to learn his mother has cancer- she died a year later in May 1888.

The facts regarding Jacob Levys conviction, disease, associations, family relationship, location and skill set as a butcher, make it hard to not look closer at this suspect. Levys sister and brother Isaac and his large family lived at Wentworth Dwellings on September 30.

Did Joseph Hyam Levy see his cousin the night of Eddowes murder and become obstinate? Did Lawende know Jacob? Was Joseph Hyam Levy the person behind the Jewish Butcher Theory and watch? Was Joseph Hyam the secret witness?

Of course we don't know. It is conjecture. But the facts regarding Jacob Levy have coincidences that potentially fit the events on the ground. His motives to be JtR and opportunity, skill and location are stronger than any suspect I've seen.

[c.d.]

I am curious why the Goulston Street chalk message is seen as , is anti-semite.

Because the message always seems to be interpreted in conjunction with the apron and the events of that night. But to me, taken by itself, it could also be interpreted as meaning the Jews are tired of being blamed for things they didn't do.

c.d.

[c.d.]

... there was a dynamic in Whitechapel that clearly pitted Alien v Briton.

But then we have to ask ourselves why did this dynamic apparently produce only one Ripper?

c.d.

[Lewis C]

Hello everyone
I am curious why the Goulston Street chalk message is seen as , is anti-semite.
The Jews will not be blamed, sounds like a warning or a bulletin to me. I believe this is the Ripper’s neighborhood.
Warren certainly a fool.
Also, I haven’t seen much on whether if Eddowes was not a prostitute, that would mean he chose her as a victim since she was not selling herself.
thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

Hi Scott,

I think the meaning of the GSG is unclear. For one thing, it has a double negative. Usually, when someone uses a double negative, they're saying the opposite of what they mean, but can we assume that that's the case here? Also, "blame" can be taken more than one way. It could mean held responsible, or it could mean accused, probably falsely. And does "will not" literally mean that, a prediction of the future, or does it mean "must not"?

I think it has been established that Eddowes engaged in prostitution at least occasionally, and if Lawende really saw her, it would seem probable that she was soliciting at the time. However, it's possible that the man Lawende saw her with (if that was even her) did not kill her, and that she was ambushed in Mitre Square.

[scottnapa]

Hi Scott,

I think the meaning of the GSG is unclear. For one thing, it has a double negative. Usually, when someone uses a double negative, they're saying the opposite of what they mean, but can we assume that that's the case here? Also, "blame" can be taken more than one way. It could mean held responsible, or it could mean accused, probably falsely. And does "will not" literally mean that, a prediction of the future, or does it mean "must not"?

I think it has been established that Eddowes engaged in prostitution at least occasionally, and if Lawende really saw her, it would seem probable that she was soliciting at the time. However, it's possible that the man Lawende saw her with (if that was even her) did not kill her, and that she was ambushed in Mitre Square.

Thanks for the answer. I think it’s very clear that the writer of the message is a one who writes as he speaks. The chalk message doesn’t make as much sense to the eye, but the message is easier to understand when a person speaks it aloud.
I assume Jack’s been in London for a while, 5 or 10 years. But English is a second language for him.
I don’t like using the word graffiti either. As the casual reader thinks of the graffiti we see it every day in the modern world.
How common is this type of graffiti an occurrence in Victorian London?
I think this message is unique and situational and so I credit it to the Ripper.

As for Eddowes, i am sure she is suffering from an amount of illness related pain. I interpret her need for alcohol is medicinal at this point.


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[c.d.]

How common is this type of graffiti an occurrence in Victorian London?

That question has been asked before. Apparently it was quite common in London and Whitechapel as well. Dislike of immigrants breeds graffiti. Naturally, the immigrants take offense and respond with graffiti of their own.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

I was curious Tom_Wescott you seemed like you were going somewhere with the two-men theory. I ask because [when the aspect of harvesting organs is removed from the case], there’s a high likelihood that we all would be connecting the timeline of Jack the Slasher from Marta Tabram straight through to Frances Cole. And also because there are peculiarities about (some of) the scenes of the crimes that would be more easily explained if there were two men, such as lack of injuries to the palms and fingers, the condition of the clothes.

I was just pointing out that the murders of Stride and Eddowes were obviously connected. Odds are that the same hand fell both, but if not (as the doctors believed) then we're looking at two killers working together. In modern day murders, a killing team is rare enough to be remarkable, but East End LVP was a different and rather unique time, was it not? The Whitechapel murders are likewise unique for several reasons. But until the Chapman murder, the police were looking for a gang, not a lone killer. Smith was allegedly assaulted by three men, Tabram killed by two very different blades, and Schwartz (presuming him an honest witness) put two men on the street with Stride, unsure if they were or were not together. It's not like we have to look too hard to find reason to at least consider the two-man theory. In his post mortem notes for McKenzie, Dr. Phillips discusses the 'one-man theory' favored by police and openly disagrees with it. He's referring to the Whitechapel murders in the general sense and does not postulate that the different killers were working together, but he does suggest different hands at work.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[scottnapa]

How common is this type of graffiti an occurrence in Victorian London?

That question has been asked before. Apparently it was quite common in London and Whitechapel as well. Dislike of immigrants breeds graffiti. Naturally, the immigrants take offense and respond with graffiti of their own.

c.d.

yes I have heard that. i have to believe this not a typical graffiti which might be -- go back to where you came from you smelly foreigner.

[scottnapa]

Hi Scott,

I think the meaning of the GSG is unclear. For one thing, it has a double negative. Usually, when someone uses a double negative, they're saying the opposite of what they mean, but can we assume that that's the case here? Also, "blame" can be taken more than one way. It could mean held responsible, or it could mean accused, probably falsely. And does "will not" literally mean that, a prediction of the future, or does it mean "must not"?

I think it has been established that Eddowes engaged in prostitution at least occasionally, and if Lawende really saw her, it would seem probable that she was soliciting at the time. However, it's possible that the man Lawende saw her with (if that was even her) did not kill her, and that she was ambushed in Mitre Square.

I think Catherine was heading back to Boon where she'd been drinking earlier so here's a map that I made kind of showing how I think about it