September 30,1888- The night of Clues?

[Abby Normal]

Hi everyone, long, long time reader, first time poster, so please bear with me. Love the website and have learned so much over the years.

Something you've mentioned, Abby, which has always been a puzzle, is whether Stride was out soliciting, or on a date. The circs - being dolled on and hanging around with a man, IMO do lean toward the latter, which leaves me the question. If the 'date' she's seen with was the man who murdered her (and I know there could me more than one man she's in the company of that night) is it reasonable to assume he'd be someone mature and closer to her age and not a 23 year old?

Apologies if this has been covered before.

hi john
welcome to tje nut house!

thats a great question. and yes that seems reasonable. but iwouldnt say date like it was pre planned. i think more then likely she went out for a good time, newly single, and keeping an eye out for a new man. and i think she met one who she maybe hoped was going to be, unfortunately for her it was the ripper.

[Abby Normal]

No, but I was noting that her location is the odd one out in terms of being on the other side of the main road/high street alongside the other poster noting that Berner Street was not necessarily where you'd go to find a prostitute. It's at least worth pointing out if we're going to debate the DE.

i think it might just be random, or that maybe he met her somewhere else, maybe even north of high street, and they seemed to have been wandering around together a bit. i dont think you can read much into her murder location being south of high street, although its a valid observation for discussion.

[JohnSAJR]

hi john
welcome to tje nut house!

thats a great question. and yes that seems reasonable. but iwouldnt say date like it was pre planned. i think more then likely she went out for a good time, newly single, and keeping an eye out for a new man. and i think she met one who she maybe hoped was going to be, unfortunately for her it was the ripper.

Thanks for the welcome and reply, Abby.

If she's out looking for a new suitor, it's more likely she'd seek someone closer to her age, rather than a man much younger, but I don't discount she's simply out for the night and met various men. IMO, the Brown and Schwartz statements are interesting. Brown sees and hears "No, not tonight. Some other night." Guy walks off angered and then u-turns back toward Stride as Schwartz comes along. What happens after that though? Anyway, cheers for the reply.

[scottnapa]

i think it might just be random, or that maybe he met her somewhere else, maybe even north of high street, and they seemed to have been wandering around together a bit. i don't think you can read much into her murder location being south of high street, although its a valid observation for discussion.

I think that Stride and Nichols were both picked up on Whitechapel and the ripper sought out a site that appealed to him. He went north with Nichols and went south with Stride. If you look at the crime on a map and thinking north south, Stride is the victim that stands out as being in a different quadrant but if you look at the crime on a map in the east west, the Nichols is the one that's questionable. I never considered Stride was picked up on Berner Street after all she was seen at the pub was a Bricklayer Arms and then continued south. i have found it to be useful to compare locations to ethnic boundaries. All of the victims lived in common houses in the same Jewish neighborhoods. My best guess is the Ripper live very close to the chalk message.

[The Rookie Detective]

Some excellent points being made on this thread.


I think the location of Stride's murder is interesting because it does fall south of Whitechapel Road.

However, I don't believe this was the exception because Coles and the Pinchin Street Torso were also south of the Whitechapel Road.

The idea that the Ripper was a Whitechapel murderer is rather misleading.

For example, on the night of the double event, Stride was slain in St George's in the East and Eddowes in the COL.


I think he should have been labelled the "East End murderer" because it covers a broader area; rather than restrict his crimes to Whitechapel.


The murder of Frances Coles is particularly interesting.

Her killer was almost certainly the man in the "cheesecutter hat" who punched Coles companion Ellen Callaran in the face after the latter had rejected the man's advances.


This man is reminiscent of the man who was alleged to have assaulted Stride.


There could therefore be a scenario whereby the man who murdered Stride, also murdered Coles...but him not having been the "Ripper."


We would then have a killer who operated south of Whitechapel Road.


The real ripper may have been responsible for...


Tabram
Nichols
Chapman
Eddowes
Kelly
McKenzie


It's interesting how the amount of victims that can be confidently attributed to the Ripper; still remains a relatively unknown aspect of the case.

[Tom_Wescott]

Whitechapel was too hot. Crawling with cops. It makes sense the Ripper moved to St. Georges and the COL for this reason. Probably for the same reason he went to Bethnal Green following Smith/Tabram when that area became a bit hot. If Stride was killed by a different hand than Eddowes (and that's a big if), then the two men were working together. This is the theory favored by the City of London police.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Robert St Devil]

There’s the counterpoint scottnapa that the ladies led Jack the Ripper to these sites.
In the case of Nichols, she could have been leading him to (correct me if I’m wrong) Brown’s Stableyard only to find that it had been recently painted and locked.
In the case of Stride, (maybe) she wasn’t as eager OR as enthusiastic as the other women to rush him off to a secluded spot; (maybe) she was just strolling about (slightly guarded) considering that 3 women had been murdered in the past 2 months and (allegedly) some guy had jokingly put a bug in her ear that she was with the Ripper himself.
The randomness of these locations could be attributed to the notion that Jack the Ripper followed where opportunity led him.

[Lewis C]

I don't place much significance on Stride's murder being the only one south of Whitechapel Road, because you could equally say that the Nichols murder was the only one that was that far to the east, and the Eddowes murder was the only one in the City of London, and either well south or well west of all the others. If you were to find the geographical center point of the C5 plus Tabram murder sites, I think you'd find that the Nichols, Stride, and Eddowes sites are about equally far from the center.

[scottnapa]

There’s the counterpoint scottnapa that the ladies led Jack the Ripper to these sites.
In the case of Nichols, she could have been leading him to (correct me if I’m wrong) Brown’s Stableyard only to find that it had been recently painted and locked.
In the case of Stride, (maybe) she wasn’t as eager OR as enthusiastic as the other women to rush him off to a secluded spot; (maybe) she was just strolling about (slightly guarded) considering that 3 women had been murdered in the past 2 months and (allegedly) some guy had jokingly put a bug in her ear that she was with the Ripper himself.
The randomness of these locations could be attributed to the notion that Jack the Ripper followed where opportunity led him.

I’m very excited that you brought this point up. Thank you.
It’s a question that I have as I look at each of the crime sites, does Jack the Ripper have a plan?
FBI profile says the Ripper more lucky than smart.The more I see, the less I agree.
I think the Ripper is more clever than he is lucky. Oh, he’s lucky, sure. For each crime scene, I as the question ‘does the Ripper has a plan’ ,

Serial Killers often succeed not because they're smarter but because they practice in their mind over and over.
They practice in the world and so I think it's very fair to imagine giving his success that the ripper is more clever than lucky.
Who chooses the site where the murder took place?
In the case of Nichols, there is little evidence to suggest one way or another. if Nichols or the killer chose Buck’s Row.
As I say, it’s a warehouse district and so that would be something that the Ripper would choose.
his makes sense as reason for someone to kill Polly at Brown’s Stable Yard. However that is insufficient proof of a plan .

It is wise to remember that Jack is the one with the knife,
The Ripper has the desire and will to murder publicly;
he could’ve chosen to kill Polly Nichols on Winthrop St or Court Street or piss alley.
No reason he had to let Polly take him someplace he did not want to go.
Whether the killer selected the Buck’s Row or not, the timing was up to him.
I believe the killer liked to take risks, more than most killers.
As I graph the location of the Polly Nichols murder, with the police routes,
there is little room for error for the killer. . One of the key elements to the case for me is how
the crimes scenes are similar to that most English of mystery tropes: the locked room puzzle.
How does he get there unseen? How does he leave unseen? Why does no one hear him?

As for Stride, the flower and the refusal “not tonight” tell the story.
He has chosen her. He doesn’t expect the resistance from a prostitute and so he throws her into the court.
Neither of them have chosen this spot, As a locked room puzzle it differs from Polly Nichols as some many witness see them before,
However, after, no one sees him leave. It’s shocking;, so many witnesses before the murder and absolutely none afterwards.
I believe he practices his crimes, walking the streets nightly, noticing, learning what routes to take, what alleys provide him with the highest percentage of safety, what paths the police take to patrol the same routes night after night. Few pay attention to him since he's local. He looks local. He doesn't look like a madman, but he's always calculating.