From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Does anyone know if Polish Jews are any less disposed to murder than Jews of other nationality?

[c.d.]

As I have pointed out previously, there is no record of a Polish Jewish serial killer anywhere.

Even if we accept this as an absolute certainty, what conclusions can we draw from it? Does it mean that no Polish Jew is physically capable of being a serial killer in that it would somehow violate the laws of physics like traveling faster than the speed of light?

And even if there is no record of it, could it have happened without the killer being caught and therefore unknown?

c.d.

[Darryl Kenyon]

As I have pointed out previously, there is no record of a Polish Jewish serial killer anywhere.

.

Severin Klosowski [ George Chapman ], was born in Nagornak Poland. He studied Yiddish . He murdered three women what we know of.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

As I have pointed out previously, there is no record of a Polish Jewish serial killer anywhere.

Even if we accept this as an absolute certainty, what conclusions can we draw from it? Does it mean that no Polish Jew is physically capable of being a serial killer in that it would somehow violate the laws of physics like traveling faster than the speed of light?

And even if there is no record of it, could it have happened without the killer being caught and therefore unknown?

c.d.

It means it is possible, but very unlikely.

It is rather like suggesting, as has been suggested, that B.S., a broad-shouldered, stout, semi-drunk, who was assaulting a prostitute on a Saturday night, and shouting an anti-Jewish insult at a man of Jewish appearance passing by, was actually a thin Polish Jew, who was not known ever to have associated with prostitutes, nor ever to have been drunk, and who quite possibly - as suggested by a document recently published here - had been to synagogue a few hours earlier.

I have to ask why someone would find a suggestion like that credible.

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes.

I did mean Aaron.

If Swanson had someone else in mind, then either he had a different first name, in which case there is no record of such a person at Colney Hatch, or Swanson got his name wrong - in which case, one wonders what else he may have got wrong.

Have you read Adam Wood's book, Swanson? Fortunately, I'm not the only one who thinks the Anderson/Swanson 'Kosminski' might be someone with more meat on them than Aaron. That's why I consider 'Kosminski' and Aaron as two different arguments, until they're proved to be one and the same. Too many discrepancies. I must admit my biggest problem with Aaron is his age. 23? When I look at the Ripper crimes, I do not see the hand of a 23 year-old.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Have you read Adam Wood's book, Swanson? Fortunately, I'm not the only one who thinks the Anderson/Swanson 'Kosminski' might be someone with more meat on them than Aaron. That's why I consider 'Kosminski' and Aaron as two different arguments, until they're proved to be one and the same. Too many discrepancies. I must admit my biggest problem with Aaron is his age. 23? When I look at the Ripper crimes, I do not see the hand of a 23 year-old.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I have made the same point before about Kosminski's age - and also about Kaminski and Kłosowski.

There is no-one that young among any of the suspects' descriptions supplied by witnesses.

Since the vast majority of the suspects could not have been the murderer, that may not be conclusive, but it does seem to suggest that the victims' clients were rarely so young.

I agree also that the murderer is unlikely to have been that young anyway.

It seems that an age close to 30 is more likely - and that was the estimate provided by both Lawende and Schwartz.

[Sam Flynn]

Severin Klosowski [ George Chapman ], was born in Nagornak Poland. He studied Yiddish . He murdered three women what we know of.

BTW, that's Nagórna - "Nagornak" was a mistake in HL Adam's 1930 book The Trial of George Chapman, which stuck until around 2010 when I uncovered the error. Also, I don't think Kłosowski formally studied Yiddish per se, but he'd have acquired some fluency in the language, given where he grew up and the circles he moved in.

[Darryl Kenyon]

When we look at the GSG one point sometimes raised is that the writing was left to cast suspicion on the Jews, after he murdered Liz in the yard of a Jewish socialist club as well .
The point here is, if this was his reason he didn't do a very good job of it since most people believe the GSG was a racial slur aimed at the Jews. Plus there is the shout of Lipski as well , another racial slur. I think we can discount this objective.

So, did the killer have a perceived injustice aimed at the Jews? Well if he did it was only shown on 30 Sept, perhaps with the killing of Liz in Dutfields yard and the GSG.
No such hints that he may have been antisemitic with the murders of Martha, Polly , Annie and Mary with the choice of victim or location. Is there any other evidence that Jack was antisemitic ? Was he known to try and say burn down a synagogue ? Did he attack any Jewish women ? Were any synagogues vandalised or Jewish ladies attacked during that Autumn ? Was any letters written to anyone where he say, blamed the Jews for his killing spree ?Instead of what most people believe, IE He had a deep seated psychotic hatred within him, probably aimed at women in general. And why wasn't a note or some graffiti found in Millers court where he had time ? Leaving a chalked message in Goulston st was high risk [ considering also that two policemen were known to patrol said street ], and a high risk which he need not have done. He could have very easily taken the apron part home with him and posted it to say Lemen st Police station with a note.
That apron could effectively have been swept up with the rubbish in the recess the next morning, and no one would have been any the wiser . It is only down to PC Long's intuition that we have it.

So was Jack peeved off because he was interrupted at Dutfields yard etc Well if he was it certainly wasn't Schwartz who interrupted him since he murdered Liz after Schwartz had allegedly hurried from the scene. And it was almost certainly PC Watkin who disturbed him in Mitre Sq if Jack hadn't already finished his grisly work .
I would discount this for a reason.

Not only that but no one is 100% sure what was written down anyway. For instance in a report from 1896, Swanson says the spelling was JEWES not JUWES as is generally thought. And we have differing accounts as to the precise wording - The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing . But Dc Halse claimed it was The Juwes are not the men that will be blamed for nothing .

Yes it was crass stupidity as Anderson says to erase the writing. It was and is a possible clue. But my own view is we should treat it with caution.

Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

BTW, that's Nagórna - "Nagornak" was a mistake in HL Adam's 1930 book The Trial of George Chapman, which stuck until around 2010 when I uncovered the error. Also, I don't think Kłosowski formally studied Yiddish per se, but he'd have acquired some fluency in the language, given where he grew up and the circles he moved in.

There is a Nagorna in Poland

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes it was crass stupidity as Anderson says to erase the writing. It was and is a possible clue. But my own view is we should treat it with caution.

Regards Darryl

This really does sum it up well, I'd say. There was a movement in the eighties and nineties amongst Ripperologists to go minimalist in their thinking, and in the process they threw out the baby with the bath water. The GSG, Stride, the items found next to the victims, the Ripper's alleged skill with a knife - all of it was chucked out of the tram because it was inconvenient. This was (and is) a pet peeve of mine and served as the backbone for the research in my two books. Another peeve of mine is when we go in the opposite direction and weave complicated theories built on maybes and what-ifs. Somewhere between the empty pram and everything-including-the-kitchen-sink lies real ground for peaking into the past and seeing what happened.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fiver]

It was well-known that violent homes were almost unheard of in the Jewish community in Whitechapel.

We have no idea what sort of home Kosminski came from - violent or loving, religious or secular.

There is no evidence that Kosminski was in trouble for anything more serious than walking a dog without a muzzle.

There is no evidence even that he was ever of interest to the police prior to his incarceration.

There was no evidence that Michael Platt and William Matix were ever of interest to police until they were pulled over in a stolen vehicle on April 11, 1986. They were responsible for multiple armed robberies, murder and attempted murder and before the bullets stopped, they would kill two FBI agents and wound several more.

The whole case against him is non-existent.

The case against him is that a couple police had him as a suspect. We don't know why, but we can't just put it down to anti-semitism - there were plenty of other Jewish men suspected.

The case in Kosminski's favor is that:
* He was so obviously insane and the nature of his insanity made it unlikely he could have approached any of the victims and got them to let their guard down.
* He was repeatedly noted as non-violent while institutionalized.
* He wasn't institutionalized until a couple years after the Ripper killings ended.
* Most of the information about him does not match the Kosminski of the McNaughton Memorandum or Swanson Marginalia.

I doubt that Aaron Kosminski is the Kosminski referred to by McNaughton and Swanson. I consider him an very unlikely Ripper suspect.

But his Jewishness has nothing to do with his guilt or innocence.

[rjpalmer]

Severin Klosowski [ George Chapman ], was born in Nagornak Poland. He studied Yiddish . He murdered three women what we know of.

Hi Darryl.

"Unsurprisingly, the Jewish community felt stigmatized at being associated with a serial murderer. The Rev. Frank L. Cohen of Brixton Prison reassured readers of the Jewish Chronicle that Chapman was definitely a Gentile."

--Helen Wojtczak, Jack the Ripper at Last? p. 164

While some in the British press had identified 'Chapman' as a Jew, Klosowski was evidently a Roman Catholic...

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

There was no evidence that Michael Platt and William Matix were ever of interest to police until they were pulled over in a stolen vehicle on April 11, 1986. They were responsible for multiple armed robberies, murder and attempted murder and before the bullets stopped, they would kill two FBI agents and wound several more.


That is not true.


Police suspected Matix, whose fingerprints were found at the scene of his wife's murder, of being her murderer.


And that is not all.



The case against [Kosminski] is that a couple police had him as a suspect.


The case is not that Kosminski was a suspect, as Macnaghten described him, but the suspect, as Swanson described him, and the murderer, as Anderson described him.

If you mean that Anderson and Swanson believed Kosminski in 1888 or 1889 or even 1890 to have been responsible for the Whitechapel Murders, that can hardly be true.

Anderson had a theory about a homicidal maniac committing the murders, being insane, and being incarcerated, but there is no evidence that he had any particular suspect in mind until the twentieth century.

And there is no evidence that Swanson had any independent information other than what had been provided by Macnaghten and Anderson.

This is the only criminal case I have ever come across in which it is seriously suggested that two senior detectives established the guilt of a serial murderer by means of his identification by an unnamed witness.



We don't know why, but we can't just put it down to anti-semitism - there were plenty of other Jewish men suspected.


Anderson made three accusations against Jews: that the Jewish community protected the Whitechapel Murderer, that the Whitechapel Murderer was a Jew, and that a Jewish witness refused to testify against him and bring him to justice.

If that is not an example of anti-Semitism, then I do not know what is.



But his Jewishness has nothing to do with his guilt or innocence.


There has never been a recorded case of a Polish Jewish serial murderer anywhere.

There has never been a recorded case of a Jewish serial killer in Britain.

I have challenged members to produce evidence of Polish Jews attacking gentile women in the East End of London.

So far, no-one has.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

While some in the British press had identified 'Chapman' as a Jew, Klosowski was evidently a Roman Catholic...

Thank you for that information, Roger.

That may help to explain why a certain poster, who is conspicuous by his absence from this discussion, once countered my well-known denial that a Polish Jew could have been responsible by playing his trump card: George Chapman, Inspector Abberline's preferred suspect, had been a Polish Jew!

I pointed out politely that he was not, but his reaction was that it did not make any difference.

[Darryl Kenyon]

BTW, that's Nagórna - "Nagornak" was a mistake in HL Adam's 1930 book The Trial of George Chapman, which stuck until around 2010 when I uncovered the error. Also, I don't think Kłosowski formally studied Yiddish per se, but he'd have acquired some fluency in the language, given where he grew up and the circles he moved in.

Thank you Sam . I was being a bit pedantic in my earlier reply.

Regards Darryl