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From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.

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  • From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.



    I was over in the area last week on a trip back to the UK. I managed to visit all the traditional sites excluding Liz Stride but including Alice McKenzie (Also popped into St Botolphs which was great and a relief from the hecticness of the city) in a couple of hours. Sadly there is not much to see as so much redevelopment has taken place in just the past few years but there are bits. Possibly the best location is Old Castle Street which still has the fašade of the old bath houses that AM was found in front of.

    Anyway. The thing that really stood out to me was just how quickly you could reach Goulston street from Mitre square. I actually came across it almost entirely by accident as it is pretty much in a straight line away from the square back toward the east a couple of back streets (I had a rough idea I wanted to travel east nad then I was like oh this street sounds looks familiar!). Purely anecdotal I know but making that journey by foot at a brisk place has pretty much convinced me that the killer possibly taking a similar route was fleeing back toward Whitechapel, passing the entrance way to the Wentworth model dwellings (as you do!) he dumps the bloodied/soiled piece of apron. No hanging around. No writing on the wall. No hiding in a bolt hole to emerge later on. Just passing through in a great hurry. It just makes the most sense, especially when you follow the route in person.

    Again not much left but attached is a pic of the entrance way. Taken on Monday 6th Feb. (BTW Goulston Street has a thriving food market at lunch times. The queue for a falafel stall was almost round the block, so must have been good!)
    Attached Files
    Best wishes,

    Tristan

  • #2
    As far as I'm aware the entrance where the apron piece was found was slightly further along where the restaurant is. No.46-44.

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    • #3
      Thanks for your interesting post, but pardon me, I think you dismiss the GSG too quickly. The Ripper could have thrown away his apron anywhere along his route back to Whitechapel. Him leaving the apron near the grafitti by pure chance is possible, but a very, very low possibility. It is more likely this grafitti is connected with the murders. I theorise JtR┤s annoyance with what happened at Berner Street, those "nagging Jews" forcing him to break off "his wonderful deed", him the man who terrorised a whole metropolis, broke it┤s way!

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      • #4
        If it is not obvious, the stonework above the passageway was originally a sort of balustrade for the balcony above it, so people wouldn't go toppling off and down to the pavement below. This photo shows recesses on either side of the doorway leading to a basement floor, which is fenced off.

        Click image for larger version  Name:	Goulston Doorway.jpg Views:	0 Size:	48.9 KB ID:	804380

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Curious Cat View Post
          As far as I'm aware the entrance where the apron piece was found was slightly further along where the restaurant is. No.46-44.
          Yes, it is confusing. If you compare the photo posted by Losmandris with the photo above, the column immediately to the left of the doorway is closer to the entry than it used to be, yet the balustrade on the first floor is above the entry in both photos---as if either quite a lot of brick work was done at some point, or there is something wrong with one of the attributions. I don't really know the answer.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
            If it is not obvious, the stonework above the passageway was originally a sort of balustrade for the balcony above it, so people wouldn't go toppling off and down to the pavement below. This photo shows recesses on either side of the doorway leading to a basement floor, which is fenced off.

            Click image for larger version Name:	Goulston Doorway.jpg Views:	0 Size:	48.9 KB ID:	804380
            Surely they can't be the same location? In the black and white photo the brick column with the scroll work and little pointy roof is separated from the balustrade by a window and what must be 10 feet judging by the person for scale. Are there any other similar balustrades on that street. I suppose they could have moved it if it had some significance.

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            • #7
              Maybe this image may help

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              • #8
                It seems like over the years all the ground floor dwellings have been converted into shops, and the basement window wells filled in.

                I think Curious Cat has it right, the entrance to the stairs for 108-119 is the third from the right (or second from the left).
                The stair windows above are colour-coded these days: yellow, GREEN, red, blue.



                Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot_2023-02-20-21-49-22-630.jpg
Views:	857
Size:	210.7 KB
ID:	804390
                Last edited by Joshua Rogan; 02-20-2023, 09:52 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

                  Surely they can't be the same location? In the black and white photo the brick column with the scroll work and little pointy roof is separated from the balustrade by a window and what must be 10 feet judging by the person for scale. Are there any other similar balustrades on that street. I suppose they could have moved it if it had some significance.
                  No, I think it is right--the black and white photo that is. The column with the scroll work on top had a twin. These are bluish (left) and pink (right) in L's photo. The left one is cropped off in the black and white photo, but what we are actually looking at is the door on the extreme lefthand side of the black and white photo.

                  So Curious Cat is correct, and the "Graffito' passage that we see in the black and white photo was about 12' or 15' further to the right than what is shown in the colour photo in Post #1. The stonework is still confusing to me, but there must have been another balustrade over the left-hand entry (?) though it is hard to tell in the older photo.
                  Last edited by rjpalmer; 02-20-2023, 10:46 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                    No, I think it is right--the black and white photo that is. The column with the scroll work on top had a twin. These are bluish (left) and pink (right) in L's photo. The left one is cropped off in the black and white photo, but what we are actually looking at is the door on the extreme lefthand side of the black and white photo.

                    So Curious Cat is correct, and the "Graffito' passage that we see in the black and white photo was about 12' or 15' further to the right than what is shown in the colour photo in Post #1. The stonework is still confusing to me, but there must have been another balustrade over the left-hand entry (?) though it is hard to tell in the older photo.
                    Have a look at Christian's post #7. That photo clears it up. The colour photo is showing the cropped entrance to the left in the B&W photo. In Christian's post, the photo shows both entrances clearly, and both have the scroll work above them. The GSG entrance would be the one behind the wooden fencing I think.

                    - Jeff

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                    • #11
                      Makes sense! Thanks for the insights all. I think you are right, I have clearly got the wrong entrance way! So ignore the pic I posted. Wider point remains I believe. It seems logical the killer is fleeing in the direction back to Whitechapel, flings the piece of apron away as he is passing. Long just missed it on his first round!
                      Best wishes,

                      Tristan

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                      • #12
                        Hi Los
                        I agree with you partly. I do feel that Jack just slung the apron into the doorway as he passed. But I do wonder if he had a bolt hole near Mitre Sq and Long is correct in his inquest testimony.
                        One possibility is that Jack was indeed Sagar's Butchers Row suspect and he had access to the building, [ cleaned himself up, cooled down there, hid etc ], before making his way back home

                        Regards Darryl

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
                          Hi Los
                          I agree with you partly. I do feel that Jack just slung the apron into the doorway as he passed. But I do wonder if he had a bolt hole near Mitre Sq and Long is correct in his inquest testimony.
                          One possibility is that Jack was indeed Sagar's Butchers Row suspect and he had access to the building, [ cleaned himself up, cooled down there, hid etc ], before making his way back home

                          Regards Darryl
                          For me it is just the ease almost that you arrive in Goulston Street from Mitre square Avoiding the high street. Very quickly you are back in the heart of Whitechapel. If that is where you are running to then you will most likely past through it. I know my little experiment was hardly scientific but just from a practical perspective it works. Time enough between mitre square and goulston street to clean hands using the apron then to chuck it away at a trot. As has been hinted at before and highlighted above, maybe the killer tried to through the apron over one of the fences on either side of the entrance way. For whatever reason he failed but was in too much of a hurry to go back and try again or just did not notice it had not gone over. Some speculation that the organs may have ended up over one of the fences too but that is the discussion for another thread.

                          My point is due to the proximity and the direction of Goulston street I just cannot see him holing up somewhere for a couple of hours? Makes more sense he is just speeding through getting back to where ever he is staying in Whitechapel.
                          Best wishes,

                          Tristan

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Losmandris View Post
                            Makes sense! Thanks for the insights all. I think you are right, I have clearly got the wrong entrance way! So ignore the pic I posted. Wider point remains I believe. It seems logical the killer is fleeing in the direction back to Whitechapel, flings the piece of apron away as he is passing. Long just missed it on his first round!
                            I think that's exactly what Long did. The only issue for me is why he missed it. The reason for his dismissal a year or so later is interesting in that regard.
                            I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Christian View Post
                              Maybe this image may help
                              Interesting to see the wider context of the street. The ripper must have had a good view up and down the street - looks like an ideal spot to duck in, keep and eye on the street, write a message, place the apron and leave. I've never understood the resistance to the ripper having written the message, especially in the context of Stride-BS-Schwartz. If it had been written much beforehand (day, number of days) it would have been easily seen and most likely wiped away, given the content. Are we to believe that someone else wrote and anti-Jewish message that very same night and then the ripper cam along and placed the apron in that very spot? Unlikely nonsense IMO.

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