Kate's Last Half Hour

[Sam Flynn]

She left Bishopsgate at 1:00,
She was seen alive by Lawende around 1:35 near Mitre Square.
THAT'S 65 MINUTES LATER.

On the contrary. It's barely half an hour, and she'd have needed to be in the vicinity of Mitre Square much sooner in order for her killer to spot her and make his move.

[Sam Flynn]

I believe that's where she INTENDED to go after selling her own apron to pay a price for a bed, but she got a better offer!!!!

She wouldn't have found anywhere open to buy a tatty, patched apron at that time of the morning. Or at any other time, for that matter.

[Leanne]

She wouldn't have found anywhere open to buy a tatty, patched apron at that time of the morning. Or at any other time, for that matter.

I know she didn't because SHE STILL HAD HALF OF IT IN HER POSSESSIONS. And I'm not saying she was looking for a shop. Petticoat Lane on Middlesex street was for anyone looking for second hand rags!

[FISHY1118]

Originally posted by Leanne View Post
She left Bishopsgate at 1:00,
She was seen alive by Lawende around 1:35 near Mitre Square.
THAT'S 65 MINUTES LATER.You mean her clothes were seen alive .Lawende saw a women that had her back to him . He said of the women that her clothes were similar to the dead women he saw at the mortuary, hardly a convincing i.d in my opinion.

[Leanne]

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=h2D5VY3u&id=5E7A78C60B115040FC4E095BE9067703497DB2D3&thid=OIP.h2D5VY3u7wZB1jd-BeX3hAHaEs&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fi.pinimg.com%2foriginals%2f5e%2f8f%2f87%2f5e8f874d3f131890a8b6b5f6c10ef33a.jpg&exph=862&expw=1361&q=victorian+photos+rag+fair+petticoat+lane&simid=607998300976120989&selectedIndex=0&qpvt=victorian+photos+rag+fair+petticoat+lane&ajaxhist=0

[Leanne]

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=LbrFPH7R&id=BF203F3F74CD155882C8D53B8626B434CB765A52&thid=OIP.LbrFPH7RcdE54qT3g2d-dwHaFr&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F9b%2F14%2F53%2F9b1453398e021fe808823de1de357598--victorian-london-victorian-era.jpg&exph=565&expw=736&q=victorian+photos+rag+fair+petticoat+lane&simid=608038274235305203&selectedindex=10&qpvt=victorian+photos+rag+fair+petticoat+lane&ajaxhist=0&vt=0

[Sam Flynn]

I know she didn't because SHE STILL HAD HALF OF IT IN HER POSSESSIONS. And I'm not saying she was looking for a shop. Petticoat Lane on Middlesex street was for anyone looking for second hand rags!

Not at 1-1:30 in the morning, and she wouldn't have got much for one knackered old apron even if the stalls/shops were open.

[Trevor Marriott]

Originally posted by Leanne View Post
She left Bishopsgate at 1:00,
She was seen alive by Lawende around 1:35 near Mitre Square.
THAT'S 65 MINUTES LATER.

You mean her clothes were seen alive .Lawende saw a women that had her back to him . He said of the women that her clothes were similar to the dead women he saw at the mortuary, hardly a convincing i.d in my opinion.

But in the absence of anyone else being seen, or anyone coming forward, the balance of probability is that it was Eddowes.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Michael W Richards]

Surely Kate not Kelly.

There seems to be two different wounds to the nose, three if we want to be pedantic.

Not in any particular order, but the first wound straight across the bridge of the nose aligns with the two cuts to her cheeks. One sweep of the knife sliced into her cheeks and cut through the bridge of the nose.

The second wound cut the bridge of the nose at the very same point, but the knife then sliced downwards across her right cheek.

The third cut removes the tip of her nose, I think this wound is purely inconsequential because he was working in the dark.

There is no rational reason for the vertical nicks to her eyelids, I think it was a gesture. In the press the week before, the idea was published that an image of the killer was retained in the eyes of the victim. I think he was just making the statement - I read that article.

Yes Jon, sorry, I did mean Kate.

The focus, as I said, is represented within your post above. Some of the facial trauma may have been a result of squirming and the almost pitch black conditions. To answer you Leanne, I mentioned squirming because the victim is not instantly incapacitated with the throat cutting, unless by shock. The facial wounds may have been done while she was still aware.

The damage to the face kind of bugs me in terms of blood, she had very little blood on the front of her clothing...so she likely had the throat cuts while she was on her back, maybe head turned to stem the flow a bit. With this murder, as contrasted with Annies murder, there seems to be a slaughterers kind of behavior, processing. IF Lawende did see Kate, a huge if, then the time left is very slim, no matter what the actual cutting time would be. He processed Kate. The killer of Annie operated on her.

[Sam Flynn]

Some of the facial trauma may have been a result of squirming and the almost pitch black conditions.

I doubt it very much. She'd have to have pressed her face upwards against the blade and tip of the knife, with the killer holding it firm and still, for those wounds to have been accidentally "self inflicted" by squirming. Kate was almost certainly already dead from the cut throat before the killer inflicted the facial wounds himself.

[Michael W Richards]

The thing I like about this thread is that it gives us pause to review the known and the hearsay again. By the accounts of several people Kate and John lived fairly quietly for the most part. They left London together to go hopping, and returned together. That's when this story gets tested, do we see them acting in the way described by others? Johns getting drunk Friday night...on what I imagine is the pawn money, and Kate is off on her own, only stopping in the next morning briefly before moving on. She gets drunk, so drunk, she is put in a cell to cool off. John hears of this later on. She is released at 1am and heads in the opposite direction of where John would be.

45 minutes later she is found "rippered" in Mitre Square. John doesn't go looking for her, asking about if anyone knows where she might be, and Tuesday morning he reads the paper and realizes its Kate. The couple that slept together nearly every night, and seemed to be quiet, spent Friday night through Monday night apart.

It appears as if Kate has business she is tending to, and John doesn't seem to be concerned about it. Or John knows better than to speak of what he knows, or who they knew. Its too late to save Kate but he can still save his own ass.

[Leanne]

Not at 1-1:30 in the morning, and she wouldn't have got much for one knackered old apron even if the stalls/shops were open.

DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

She had to wait and that's why she took a better offer from Jack!
………who probably wasn't the person she suspected!

[FISHY1118]

But in the absence of anyone else being seen, or anyone coming forward, the balance of probability is that it was Eddowes.

I dont think probability comes into it Trevor, it either was or wasn't Eddowes, we cant or nor should we suggest what others did or didn't see.

And as i dont subscribe to the 1.37am to 1.43am time frame murder and mutilation of Eddows its my opinion it wasnt

[Leanne]

Not at 1-1:30 in the morning, and she wouldn't have got much for one knackered old apron even if the stalls/shops were open.

She didn't need much and I am not sure you are aware of how these poor people lived.

[Sam Flynn]

Or John knows better than to speak of what he knows, or who they knew. Its too late to save Kate but he can still save his own ass.

John Kelly was an odd-jobber who had been working for a fruit-seller quite steadily for a number of years, but was never well-off and was desperately poor when he first steps into our spotlight. For up to two days before Kate's death, he and she had been trying to scrape together some money by going hopping in Kent, crashing out in a barn. This hopping expedition was hardly a financial success, to the extent that Kelly was forced to pawn his boots on returning to London. Given this background, neither he nor Eddowes strike me as the kind of people to have been involved in any conspiracies, in any capacity.