Kate's Last Half Hour

[Michael W Richards]

If Catherine Eddowes and Elizabeth Stride got together to plan a blackmail and Catherine's meeting with Jack outside of Mitre Square was her first attempt, then how did Jack know that Stride was involved to be able to kill her first?

How did Kate inform Jack that he must meet her at a certain place at a certain time? Was it before she went hopping? Why did she plan it for a morning that she thought she'd be away?

I don't see how or why you included Liz Stride in the equation Leanne, but, I don't necessarily see Kates killer as being the man to that point known as "Jack". I believe its possible that Kate arranged to speak with some people about what she knew, people associated with her eventual killer. Or the one that orders it. They did that, Saturday afternoon, and after buying her a bunch of drinks they discover she knows too much. They arrange to meet at Mitre Square at 1, lets say for arguments sake. Her arrest is unplanned of course, and likely caused some panic among the criminals she endangered with her information, but it was the City, and she would be released that night at some point. They didn't have to wait very long.

I think its possible she was killed by someone who was involved in the Post Office robbery that same night, if for no other reason than we have proof that criminals were in that immediate area carrying out a crime at the very same time as her murder.

[Leanne]

Hop harvesting was like a working holiday.
Kate and John had been away 5 to 6 weeks.

The returned three days before her murder, that's on the 27th. If they'd been away at least 35 days, that means they left on around the 22nd of August. Earlier if assume they'd been away for 6 weeks.

That tallies with Nichols moving from opposite Kate's sister in Thrawl Street to next door to Kate at Flower and Dean on 24th August before she left for Kent.

???????????

[DJA]

That thread is long closed.

[Sam Flynn]

There is nothing, no single fact that presents any obstacle to that theory within all the known evidence, so I wouldnt be so quick to toss it on the pile of useless Ripper Theories just yet. Nor would the fact that she uses 2 aliases her last 24 hours that contain this name and address...Mary Jane Kelly, _6 Dorset Street be something to just toss aside.

They were two false names and addresses, not a cryptic crossword puzzle. She said "6 Dorset Street", not "26" or "[blank] 6", she also gave an address in "Fashion Street", and gave the names "Jane Kelly" and "Mary ANN Kelly" on separate occasions. It's only by munging the two aliases together, discarding the bits we don't like and imagining a handy "twenty" that we get anything close to MJK. It's also worth noting that "Mary" was the most popular woman's name in the 19th Century, and the most popular middle names were "Ann(e)" and "Jane". See this old post, for example:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...226#post159226

On the same page, Wolf Vanderlinden reminds us that "Mark King, writing in Ripperana #12 (April, 1995), has shown that John Kelly'’s “wife,” the one before Eddowes, was named Mary Ann Kelly and that Eddowes would have known her since she died at 55 Flower and Dean Street, the same address Eddowes and Kelly lived, on 15 May, 1888."

For those interested in reading spooky significance into the tea-leaves of Eddowes' aliases (plural; name-wise and address-wise), it might be worth moving the discussion to that thread.

[DJA]

Hi Leanne,

Guess you missed post #441 which was meant for you.
2 of the five lived next door.
The rest within 80 meters of each other.
6 Fashion Street was directly behind 32 Flower & Dean,Stride's last address.
Mary Ann Kelly was a 29 year old who was a member of Jack's church as a child.

Henry Gawen Sutton was Jack the Ripper.
Suffice to inform for the moment that he was being blackmailed as a bisexual,which meant 2 years hard labor.
As soon as Nichols moved next door to Eddowes,Kate went hopping.
This left Polly in position to make the first move.
Then murder upped the stakes.

[Leanne]

Im far less forgiving than Sam on the issue of the aliases and the fact that Kates behaviour in her last 24 hours, let alone her last 1/2 hour, is dramatically different than what is portrayed as usual by more than 1 witness about her lifestyle prior to that day. And the fact that Kelly definately doesnt tell the truth in some areas at the Inquest. Why these things occurred is really anyones guess..all we have is patterns to that point, characterizations and comments from people who knew her, and the actual events of that last day and night.

If Kate did claim she intended to collect the reward by giving the police a name...the meager reward that was available before her death as Leanne has pointed out, then we have the potential for her trying to "double down" on that information by letting the person who she intended to rat out that she was open to better offers for her information, and that her silence could be bought.

There is nothing, no single fact that presents any obstacle to that theory within all the known evidence,

THEN ANSWER ALL OF THE POINTS THAT I JUST MADE! Tell us who Ripper was and how he knew who was going to try to blackmail him to able to silence Elizabeth Stride first.

so I wouldnt be so quick to toss it on the pile of useless Ripper Theories just yet. Nor would the fact that she uses 2 aliases her last 24 hours that contain this name and address...Mary Jane Kelly, _6 Dorset Street be something to just toss aside.

YES TOSS IT ON THE PILE!
It would make a good fiction story though.

[Leanne]

Her alias at 6 Dorset Street was Mary ANNE Kelly and she was likely known as John KELLY'S wife.

MARY ANNE was a very common, simple couple of names to choose and KELLY was chosen as it was John Kelly's surname.

[Leanne]

Her alias at 6 Dorset Street was Mary ANNE Kelly and she was likely known as John KELLY'S wife.

[Leanne]

If Catherine Eddowes and Elizabeth Stride got together to plan a blackmail and Catherine's meeting with Jack outside of Mitre Square was her first attempt, then how did Jack know that Stride was involved to be able to kill her first?

How did Kate inform Jack that he must meet her at a certain place at a certain time? Was it before she went hopping? Why did she plan it for a morning that she thought she'd be away?

[Leanne]

Taking Sam's usual edict that the five did not know each other,despite living next door to each other or within 13 doors in Dorset Street,it appears you are corresponding to a figment of our imaginations.
Sam could not exist as with the millions of people in Wales ..... the country ..... his parents obviously would never have met

# All together Dorset Street provided 750 beds, Polly Nichols had no known connection to Dorset Street, so if the others got together to plan a blackmail it could have been about her murder.

# The offer for a reward from the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee for INFORMATION wasn't published until September 21. Chapman was killed on September 8, so that leaves her out. And the information could have been about her murder.

# Elizabeth Stride's boyfriend lived at 38 Dorset Street, and Catherine Eddowes and John Kelly possibly used 6 Dorset Street for immoral purposes.

# Mary Jane Kelly and Joseph Barnett moved into a court between No. 26 and 27 Dorset Street in February 1888.

[Lipsky]

Im far less forgiving than Sam on the issue of the aliases and the fact that Kates behaviour in her last 24 hours, let alone her last 1/2 hour, is dramatically different than what is portrayed as usual by more than 1 witness about her lifestyle prior to that day. And the fact that Kelly definately doesnt tell the truth in some areas at the Inquest. Why these things occurred is really anyones guess..all we have is patterns to that point, characterizations and comments from people who knew her, and the actual events of that last day and night.

If Kate did claim she intended to collect the reward by giving the police a name...the meager reward that was available before her death as Leanne has pointed out, then we have the potential for her trying to "double down" on that information by letting the person who she intended to rat out that she was open to better offers for her information, and that her silence could be bought.

There is nothing, no single fact that presents any obstacle to that theory within all the known evidence, so I wouldnt be so quick to toss it on the pile of useless Ripper Theories just yet. Nor would the fact that she uses 2 aliases her last 24 hours that contain this name and address...Mary Jane Kelly, _6 Dorset Street be something to just toss aside.

Thank you Michael, my thoughts exactly.

It is interesting that in a case where clues are few and far between and we speculate on extraordinary yet blatantly inept barbers and other unfortunates, that when such departures from one's routine are remarked in the last days/hours prior to murder, we fail to acknowledge them as such, let alone evaluate them in systemic manner.

[Michael W Richards]

Im far less forgiving than Sam on the issue of the aliases and the fact that Kates behaviour in her last 24 hours, let alone her last 1/2 hour, is dramatically different than what is portrayed as usual by more than 1 witness about her lifestyle prior to that day. And the fact that Kelly definately doesnt tell the truth in some areas at the Inquest. Why these things occurred is really anyones guess..all we have is patterns to that point, characterizations and comments from people who knew her, and the actual events of that last day and night.

If Kate did claim she intended to collect the reward by giving the police a name...the meager reward that was available before her death as Leanne has pointed out, then we have the potential for her trying to "double down" on that information by letting the person who she intended to rat out that she was open to better offers for her information, and that her silence could be bought.

There is nothing, no single fact that presents any obstacle to that theory within all the known evidence, so I wouldnt be so quick to toss it on the pile of useless Ripper Theories just yet. Nor would the fact that she uses 2 aliases her last 24 hours that contain this name and address...Mary Jane Kelly, _6 Dorset Street be something to just toss aside.

[Sam Flynn]

Am I to understand correctly that such lack of any deliberation characterizes, in your opinion, not only Kate's last half hour but also her last 48 hours lets say?

Absolutely. There was almost certainly no pre-arranged meeting.

Including the twice given alias?

Aliases - there was more than one, not the same one twice-given. I read no significance into them at all, and it's far simpler to conclude that she was just making stuff up.

[Lipsky]

I'll be brief. No, they don't.

Am I to understand correctly that such lack of any deliberation characterizes, in your opinion, not only Kate's last half hour but also her last 48 hours lets say?

Including the twice given alias?

And that such lack of deliberation characterizes Kelly's elusive answer (or straightforward lying) at the inquest?

[Sam Flynn]

So dear Sam, your thoughts on whether Kate's half hour demonstrates a hasty, sloppy attempt to "make it on time" (give-take a few pints) for a predesigned meeting?

I'll be brief. No, they don't.